Overcoming the problems with working at height

[needasparks]

But would you really be that aware of the sway ? as nothing is around you to get the perspective.
Must say, i would rather try that than do a sky dive. No sorry i meant rather go down the pub.

 

[Engineer54]

But would you really be that aware of the sway ? as nothing is around you to get the perspective.
Must say, i would rather try that than do a sky dive. No sorry i meant rather go down the pub.

Errr... i think the mast it's self will be giving you all the perspective you need, to be telling you your swaying around in the wind. Did you not see the swaying yourself in the clip?? ...(i'm sure the numerous cable guides be creaking away like a good-un too!! lol!!!) It was what was making you wheezy as he was climbing...lol!!!

 

[alarm man]

A risk assessment also must include cost - as far as reasonably practicable.

If a customer is only paying you £300 to do a job which generates £100 profit for the company and a scissor lift costs £100 it is not as far as reasonably practicable to hire one in
However if it costs £25 per day and you say I need to make at least £150 on every job - apart from you not making that in the first place that is not considered as an excuse!

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just so im reading that quote right,if the job isnt priced for safe access you dont need to use it,if it is priced for you use it

 

[Spazz]

No, its more of a situation where something happens and you have already given a quote of £300.

For example:
You are doing a house rewire - the areal falls off as a result of your actions and you only have a budget of £100 left - a ladder will be ok with that as long as there is no external factors and the risk assessment does not throw up anything.

You might get away with the customer only wants to pay x amount and that does not allow you to hire equipment - but you have to prove that the other route that you are taking does not impose any additional risk to the contractor

Another example is:
You are painting the outside of the house - house is to big to use a roller on a pole and the space on the floor is to small or unstable to put scaffolding up or get a telescopic arm with a cage (for you to stand in) so the only other option is a ladder.

Then you have to do a risk assessment on the use of a ladder - making sure its stable, cant tip (using rope to secure it a set distance from the wall and rope at the top to secure it to the wall at the top), possible harnesses if you have them available, ladder slip mats, etc, etc, etc

 

[Spazz]

Its all down to doing all as far as reasonably practicable

Quoting less because you dont want to take into account Safety is not doing all as far as reasonably practicable

 

[needasparks]

Its all down to doing all as far as reasonably practicable

Quoting less because you dont want to take into account Safety is not doing all as far as reasonably practicable

But its the only way i can outprice the Electrical Trainee. they do 4weeks H&S and one week electrical. simples.

 

[alarm man]

No, its more of a situation where something happens and you have already given a quote of £300.

For example:
You are doing a house rewire - the areal falls off as a result of your actions and you only have a budget of £100 left - a ladder will be ok with that as long as there is no external factors and the risk assessment does not throw up anything.

You might get away with the customer only wants to pay x amount and that does not allow you to hire equipment - but you have to prove that the other route that you are taking does not impose any additional risk to the contractor

im not sure about that nic,i work for a multi-national and will run that one by the h&s dept next week,forget the aerial scene what your saying there is if something happens where the contractor or individual has to right a mistake the risk assesment is based on the job profit not the specific risk which has been adjusted from say a picker to ladders because of a loss on the job if the initial ra is a picker you cant then do anothe ra to ladders because you going to lose profit,to me you make a mistake you put that right following your ra's regardless,if you make a mistake and you loose money on a job then thats the way it is

 

[alarm man]

But its the only way i can outprice the Electrical Trainee. they do 4weeks H&S and one week electrical. simples.

agree,with the solar game and the fascia game ive seen companies doing it right with ra's scaffold etc,you see others on ladders or standing on roofs with nothing but a decent grip on their trainers,people tend to go with the lower quotes so companies who quote safely loose out and the standards drop

 

[Des 56]

Quote from guy in video clip
"Well that just proved that system doesn't work" said in that cute geordie accent
Safety adviser falls from ladder - YouTube

Tied to the wall(Yeh I know,H+S freaking once again) then demonstrating what I believe was a safety harness, for a safe ladder use demo

I hold my own H+S in such importance that it frightens me to think, if I was starting out in the world of work,my safety no longer would rely on the best person to ensure it,"ME" instead of these office bound numpties who compile all this nonsense

They take away personal responsibility and replace it with over zealous claptrap, that uses the lowest common denominator to make these assessments

There, thats my view gently aired

 

[Spazz]

alarm

Im using it as an example - profit does come into it partly


bottom line you have to do everything as far as reasonably practicable to ensure the safety of yourself and those working for you

Using profit alone is not a good reason at all!

And using I had to charge that to get the job is not either!

 

[alarm man]

alarm

Im using it as an example - profit does come into it partly


bottom line you have to do everything as far as reasonably practicable to ensure the safety of yourself and those working for you

Using profit alone is not a good reason at all!

And using I had to charge that to get the job is not either!

so to get the jobs you downgrade the ra's to beat the price of a contractor who ra's state xyz and who's costs are added to the price..id say 'reasonably practicable/profitable wouldnt hold up in court..'couldnt afford it your honour' job went over,its no defence

 

[Spazz]

I think you are all getting the wrong end of this

It comes partly into it.

Yes it was a bad example and I should of found another


Either way a risk assessment will tell you how far you have to take something and what you have to do to ensure the safety of yourself/staff

 

[Spazz]

If I come on tomorrow (as its my birthday)
I will provide a sample risk assessment that will get past HSE for the use of a ladder - otherwise I will do it on Tuesday

 

[alarm man]

If I come on tomorrow (as its my birthday)
I will provide a sample risk assessment that will get past HSE for the use of a ladder - otherwise I will do it on Tuesday

its not about getting past hse,its about complying with hse and safety,

 

[Spazz]

its not about getting past hse,its about complying with hse and safety,

You know what I ment!!!

 

[KFH]

Many years ago, before I acquired any sense, I was working at a chemical works and we needed to get a bit of heavy equipment down from the third floor (each one about 20ft high). So I climb a ladder up to a 4" beam about 15ft above the floor of the third floor and sit on it so I can inch along to the bit over an opening in the floor (about 10ft sq, no barriers). So I am now about 75ft above the ground, inside the building. I tie a sling around the beam and then I am thrown a rope from the solid bit of the third floor, I use this to pull up a chain block which I fit to the sling. I then inch back along the beam to the ladder and climb down. No harness, no health and safety.

These days I get nervous on my small step ladders.

It was on the same job while putting a boiler in place by hand (about 10 ton) that the foreman nodded in the direction of the laggers and said they will be luck to get to 40 years old with the asbestos they are using.

 

[Andy 7671]

I had to laugh wryly when, on my IPAF course the trainer asks us to put our harness on.

Being the shy retiring type I says meekly, "Hold on, we paid good money for this, would it be at all possible for you to show us the correct procedure please..?"

"Nope" says he, "thats another course you need"

And he made me look ugly in my photo.

 

[JD6400]

This is what really got to me , four different courses for the different classes and the another for your harness then the insurance then the emergency recuse gear then the multiple checks and inspections to do before you even get of the ground and heaven forbid if it is not all in order because they will still crucify you anyway , might as well send em up a piece of bamboo to do the job as you will still get nailed the same if it goes wrong !

 

[Andy 7671]

Talking of emergency rescue, toxic shock etc, them that walk past, taking flash photographs when youve got your hand in live trunking or asking you to put your lid on when your squeezed between services then blithely walk past a boom in use with no key in the ground control.

 

[UNG]

A risk assessment also must include cost - as far as reasonably practicable.

This is the first time I have ever heard that cost is a factor in a risk assessment, I can see it now on the RA Hazard = not enough profit!! control measure = Quote properly to take account of H&S requirements unless you are prepared to cut corners

If a customer is only paying you £300 to do a job which generates £100 profit for the company and a scissor lift costs £100 it is not as far as reasonably practicable to hire one in
However if it costs £25 per day and you say I need to make at least £150 on every job - apart from you not making that in the first place that is not considered as an excuse!

If the control measures to reduce the risk of the hazard occurring to a minimum dictate the use of a MEWP then that is what is required regardless of cost unless there are other mitigating circumstances that preclude the use of a MEWP like no access for one then the next best alternative should be used

3 years delivering these courses to people who inspect people like ourselves who have fallen off said equipment and ladders - you pic up some stories and the outcome of them

Falling off things is not something I've tried

The law states that you as the employer must do everything as far as reasonably practicable to protect those who work for you and those who may be around as a result of your work activities

IT DOES NOT STATE YOU MUST DO THIS COURSE AND THIS AND THIS

That is a recommendation (ONLY) in the approved code of practice and then they dont say you must do this and this!

Courses are a control measure that can be used to reduce the risk factor. They also fulfil the employers responsibility of providing adequate training for the task

Your insurance are the only ones who can say you must do a course as they are covering you - yet again you can always change insurance companies

I don't think you are correct on this one, if a site deems you need to have completed a specific course or courses before you can gain access the you will have to do the course(s)

Same goes for equipment you use.

I would think that it would be reasonable for an insurance company to specify a type of equipment to use but to specify a particular manufacturer would be a no no unless an equal and approved alternative was acceptable

I think you are all getting the wrong end of this

It comes partly into it.

Yes it was a bad example and I should of found another


Either way a risk assessment will tell you how far you have to take something and what you have to do to ensure the safety of yourself/staff

Not sure what end of the stick I've got!!! , as stated previously a lack of profit while it is a job hazard it has no place on an RA IMO

If I come on tomorrow (as its my birthday)
I will provide a sample risk assessment that will get past HSE for the use of a ladder - otherwise I will do it on Tuesday

I look forward to it

 

[UNG]

I had to laugh wryly when, on my IPAF course the trainer asks us to put our harness on.

Being the shy retiring type I says meekly, "Hold on, we paid good money for this, would it be at all possible for you to show us the correct procedure please..?"

"Nope" says he, "thats another course you need"

And he made me look ugly in my photo.

When I did my IPAF I refused the harness provided and used my own as they had no inspection log for the harness and it only had a rear attachment point having read up on suspension trauma and it's effect on the body I would not like to hang face down in a harness for to long

 

[Rockingit]

There are harnesses, and there are harnesses. I loathe the commonly found 'single strap' ones with shoulder point, about as much use as a chocolate fireguard for working in, all right for having some 'emotional support' for those in a basket but not much else. Sports/climbing harnesses are a big no-no, too.

Pricey, but I use a Navaho, which is all wide and padded like a sports harness but designed for full industrial access. You can quite comfortably suspend/abseil/attach yourself for hours on end with no real ill effect. You can even have a pee without taking it off (if you're careful!). And I never attach from the shoulder point out of choice, you can't self rescue if you're hanging face down. The Nav has a mid chest point that means if you did go then you're still upright but facing in a useful direction and able to see, and if unlucky enough to be unconscious then it's still easy enough to be rescued by others as there's three more structural attachment points.

Right - time for me to go and put it on!

Oh and UNG - my IPAF photo makes me look like I've just escaped from Broadmoor, so I wouldn't worry!!!!

 

[Guest111]

I will start off the first daft and dangerous one , It was in a very tall grain store and i caught some operatives installing 6ft twin flurries using a JCB lodall on full boom extension with a set of triple gang ladders on full extension out of its grain bucket and just resting against the top of the ladders on a 12" purling at the top , it had one them in the loadall with his foot on the brake as i think the hand brake was shot !

Forgot to mention that there was two cherry pickers on site sitting idle at the time ????

I work in a grain store and use a telehandler with a remote control basket etc and full harness kit,this machine was bought for use in day to day but big enough to reach anywhere for electrical work(i have a decent boss) however I went to another farm to change some lamps on 15m columns and they only had an 8 m telehandler with a gage pallet,guy says to strap an extention ladder to machine, I told him to **** off and do it himself. Anyone guess the first word?and then he thought I was being difficult.

 

[Guest111]

Worst I've seen is scissor lift extended to full length, extension ladders out of that for around another 4-5M to the ceiling. Have seen and worked with others that have used tray & basket runs for their access platform, even though its 9M+ up! One missing bracket and from that height its lights out.

I've a fear of heights, that is even more the case when I'm not totally in control. Anything above what my extension ladders can reach I'd really rather not be near it. If cherry picker or scaffold supplied not so big a problem - pretty sure my Insurance is only up to 10M and felt that good enough as I have no plans to go any higher!

Good on you D80,I also have a fear of heights after a bad fall in my younger days,and I get so sick off people taking the mick nice to find someone else in the same boat and not afraid to admit it.

 

[Andy 7671]

When I did my IPAF I refused the harness provided and used my own as they had no inspection log for the harness and it only had a rear attachment point having read up on suspension trauma and it's effect on the body I would not like to hang face down in a harness for to long

Hmmm, Ive got a feeling that despite £250 worth of training, paying attention to webbing, in date coding and no twisted straps Im still at risk.

Thanks for highlighting this.

Everyone Ive used has had the attachment middle of shoulder blades, time for some more reading.

 

[robd]

sorry to lower the tone but this made me laugh....Funny Ladder Accident HD - YouTube

 

[alarm man]

does anyone have the foot straps,we have them attached to our harness,a real life saver by all accounts,hopefully i never have to try it..

 

[UNG]

For those looking for advice on working at height and what not to do try this link

Facelift Rogues Gallery

 

[UNG]

As the OP was asking about using a ladder


Not sure about the risk assessment though

 

[alarm man]

As the OP was asking about using a ladder

View attachment 10659
Not sure about the risk assessment though

he's knocked the dish out while working on site and theres no profit in job to put right.,reasonably practical to me mate..:greedy:

 

[mhar]

I had better not post on this one!

 

[johnboy6083]

those photos from the facelift link are outrageous. Ive never seen anything like it.