Formal paperwork or not, for condition report prior to CU and other works?

[1Justin]

Customer has had builders in (nearly finished), taken down internal walls and made extended kitchen space. Various circuits loose, and dangling off cables etc.
Customer wants quote for the kitchen which is now concrete and old plaster.

20 minute first visit confirms 16[SUP]th[/SUP] ed’n board, inadequate tails, inadequate earthing conductors, no RCD on lighting, obviously no idea about integrity of any of the circuits since all I did was take a look. (I’ll also quote for 17th ed'n CU upgrade prior to getting going on the kitchen).

It’s normal practice to do either a full or partial EICR prior to starting any of this. Take it easy with me here.. (I have done EICR in 2395 practicals, on my own house and a friends places). Pretty time consuming and I’d need to try and charge something prior to getting down to the tools for the other work.

How do people normally go about this re paperwork for the customer? The customer doesn’t need (and hasn’t asked) for EICR/CRIS, they just want the end result, a working kitchen, with final EIC/GSOTR for Building Control.

But is it normal practice to produce and file any formal paperwork for pre-work-inspection even though the customer may be paying vary little at that point, since all they really want to see is me getting on with the hardware on their kitchen?

As a partial job, I could inspect cabling, and measure some Ze, R1+R2 and IR, keep my own notes and just use the info that way as appropriate, or I could go the whole hog and produce & file a full EICR/CRIS/GSOTR paperwork for a job which is about to alter much of the installation anyhow.

 

[malcolmsanford]

The first thing I would be asking you is why are you wanting to change my CU as I've only asked you tidy up some cables as per your post.

Why are the tails inadequate? What size are they and what size is the main cut out fuse?

Again there may indeed be call for upgrading the earthing, but what earthing system have you got?

Well there would be a more than even chance of there being no RCD on lighting on a 16th edition board unless the earth system was a TT, why is this going to be a problem for you?

Finally no there is no need for you to do an EICR on the installation. I agree with the part that I would be taking some reading ie IR,Zs on the existing circuits you are working on to make sure they conform

 

[Octopus]

Alterations in a kitchen/diner could well be notifiable too.

Keep it simple, if you're upgrading the socket circuit, which I'm sure you are you will need to address RCD's, bonding, etc. Obviously you'll need to test the circuits you "tidy up" too.

Bottom line, its difficult enought explaining to customers ath new socket need RCD's and the bonding needs doing, let alone trying to "sell" an EICR first too.

 

[Guitarist]

No need for an actual EICR. You need to decide what needs doing to make everything you do comply with regs, including the cost of materials, labour, notification etc, then send them a written estimate. You can always advise things which you believe would improve the installation, but which aren't strictly necessary.
Always check things like Ze, main bonding, whether supp. bonding is needed before committing to anything.
If you are new to the game, there will be many things you forget about until afterwards, and then you have to either add "extras" to the bill, or swallow the cost yourself and chalk it up to experience.

 

[imago]

Pretty time consuming and I’d need to try and charge something prior to getting down to the tools for the other work.

How do people normally go about this re paperwork for the customer?

Unfortunately that's the nature of the quoting beast when you do the job properly. You spend time on site checking things out visually, then you carry out some testing (IR, ZE, sample ZS, drop some fronts etc), then you work out materials and labour and send them the quote. It takes time, but (IMHO) it's the way it should be done.

At this stage there is no paperwork for the customer for two reasons. They don't need it/haven't bought it, and there's a real danger that you're doing the work for a less scrupulous sparky who will save time and work by using yours.

On the plus side it means that if you get the work you have a good idea of what the job entails. It also means you can give an accurate quote to the customer that you're happy with, and that will give them a true reflection of the cost involved.

 

[1Justin]

Thanks Guys, Nice advice, pretty much where I was but It's s useful to get thumbs up.

Malcom: CU is Volex 16th. If I just put the lighting circuits (which I will be extending, also unprotected cables in walls<50mm and within bathroom) on the EX RCD, all house would be on one RCD. I don't think I can do this since I'll be responsible by then for the whole installation. Isn't this one of the reasons behind 17th ed'n boards - that there shall be a RCD/circuits split? I've read on a forum that some of these old boards (Volex here) can be a pain to squeeze in RCBO's. I gathered that general consensus is to replace CU. - I could be convinced otherwise if you care to.



Tails are 10mm and Earthing Conductor about 4mm (maybe 6, not closely looked.) TNCS.

Rgds

 

[Octopus]

If the customer has had the builders in, removed walls etc and not allowed money for ther electrics they are mad or stupid, or both.

I'd be recommending a CU change, tails upgrade and bonding upgrade before the other work is contemplated.

 

[Guitarist]

Agree with Murdoch. 10mm tails?

 

[1Justin]

Well they have not allowed much/anything I recon.

They also have "Kitchen arriving" (sic) Oct 4, and they still have concrete floor and knackered plaster walls and ceiling with randon electrics dangling out.

I'll go and see them.

Thanks for all the comments.

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I'd just add another RCD to that consumer unit.
Are you sure those tails are 10mm, maybe 16mm but I doubt 10mm, what is the DNO fuse rating as Malcolm asked?

 

[1Justin]

OK, well Mark you could be right, I didn't have much time to hang about first visit, so it could be so.
DNO fuse rating also not checked yet.

 

[malcolmsanford]

As Mark said I would buy a Volex DP RCD unit and replace the L/hand main switch with it. Then you could start to jiggle the circuits around, as an example there are 3 socket circuits RCD protected I see, so take one of them off and move over to the new L/Hand RCD. Then providing there isn't a borrowed neutral you could move a light circuit over to the vacate way.

Those tails could be the old 7/064 imperial size, which is equivalent of just under 15mm and so indeed smaller than 16mm. But it is still rated at 80+ amps, so provided that the main fuse is not a 100amp, then that is fine. Provided of course there is no damage to them

Yes the Earth does look small especially for a TNC-S system and I would be changing it. Though hard to tell from the picture, changing it should not be to much of a challenge