New build timber framed problem

[jstephens251]

Hi everyone,

Thought I'd post here to see if any of you have wired new builds single storey, no loft with foil back insulation.

Its a high spec new build - downlights, data cables, speakers wires etc

I have attached a pic of the ceiling which has just been finished.

The problems i've got is there is barely a 40mm gap so drilling through will put me way out of regs. This stuff is stapled tight to ceiling so bit of a nightmare really.

Wondered what others have done to comply with regs.

Cheers, Jon

 

[Ian1981]

Hi everyone,

Thought I'd post here to see if any of you have wired new builds single storey, no loft with foil back insulation.

Its a high spec new build - downlights, data cables, speakers wires etc

I have attached a pic of the ceiling which has just been finished.

The problems i've got is there is barely a 40mm gap so drilling through will put me way out of regs. This stuff is stapled tight to ceiling so bit of a nightmare really.

Wondered what others have done to comply with regs.

Cheers, Jon

View attachment 36413

Steel joist plates perhaps.
Drill high as you can and plate the bottom of the joist

 

[J.C.E]

will not get recessed lighting in there thats for sure

 

[jstephens251]

yeah not a bad shout. plasterer might not be too happy though if they stick out.
I've raised my concerns with customer and will be checking with inspector too as theres some serious amount of cabling going in so a potential nightmare really

 

[Ian1981]

yeah not a bad shout. plasterer might not be too happy though if they stick out.
I've raised my concerns with customer and will be checking with inspector too as theres some serious amount of cabling going in so a potential nightmare really

Shouldn't stick out as you'll have the depth of the plaster board as well

 

[jstephens251]

will not get recessed lighting in there thats for sure

i know, another nightmare! theres about 90 on the plan lol also ceiling speakers. jesus. typical as it started as a nice looking job to get involved with

 

[Ian1981]

i know, another nightmare! theres about 90 on the plan lol also ceiling speakers. jesus. typical as it started as a nice looking job to get involved with

Sounds a ball ache mate

 

[J.C.E]

click do low profile downlights- think they need 50mm- so if that batten in 40+10mm plasterboard- but they are pretty expensive for 90 of the things...

 

[Ian1981]

Sounds a ball ache mate

Can the finished ceiling heights be dropped to allow cables to be clipped to underside of joist but give you your 50mm clearance?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Can the finished ceiling heights be dropped to allow cables to be clipped to underside of joist but give you your 50mm clearance?

Get the builder to batten the ceiling off.

 

[jstephens251]

yeah its a ball ache for sure. amazing how they design these builds with no runs for cables etc.
I was thinking about ceiling being dropped so will certainly ask the question. cheers guys, already a big help

 

[Ian1981]

yeah its a ball ache for sure. amazing how they design these builds with no runs for cables etc.
I was thinking about ceiling being dropped so will certainly ask the question. cheers guys, already a big help

Just wait until they get all that kingspan in the walls as well
Timber frame new builds are a nightmare sometimes........
Just think of all them noggins you have to put in for the back boxes

 

[Des 56]

A similar situation was encountered with concrete ceiling council flats
If they can cross baton that ceiling with some 2x2 or such,it should make all the runs simple and give you that extra space for the fittings
Lowering the ceiling level should cause them little problem for the great advantages obtained

 

[jstephens251]

A similar situation was encountered with concrete ceiling council flats
If they can cross baton that ceiling with some 2x2 or such,it should make all the runs simple and give you that extra space for the fittings
Lowering the ceiling level should cause them little problem for the great advantages obtained

yeah with you there. only slight snag is it's a 5 bed single story, large rooms and pitched ceilings so thats a fair bit of wood and labour!
cheers

 

[FatAlan]

Sounds like the earlier discussion re the cellotex/ flat roof and downlights. Don't these architects ever factor in wiring and pipes ?

 

[Ian1981]

yeah with you there. only slight snag is it's a 5 bed single story, large rooms and pitched ceilings so thats a fair bit of wood and labour!
cheers

Run all the cables in your 150mm top of wall zones and stick wall lights in instead!
( I'm kidding)

 

[jstephens251]

Just wait until they get all that kingspan in the walls as well
Timber frame new builds are a nightmare sometimes........
Just think of all them noggins you have to put in for the back boxes

i don't mind the noggins, purchased an evolution saw from screw fix last yr on a new build, quite enjoy. should of been a chippy instead lol

 

[Ian1981]

i don't mind the noggins, purchased an evolution saw from screw fix last yr on a new build, quite enjoy. should of been a chippy instead lol

I needed a rip saw on one site I did.
Don't teach you that at college do they all snug in your own little work bay! Ha

 

[jstephens251]

Sounds like the earlier discussion re the cellotex/ flat roof and downlights. Don't these architects ever factor in wiring and pipes ?

i know. they all seem to be going down the road of high ceilings etc. I miss lofts lol. never thought id say that

 

[ruston]

yeah with you there. only slight snag is it's a 5 bed single story, large rooms and pitched ceilings so thats a fair bit of wood and labour!
cheers

Not a lot of choice really . They can not have it all ways.

 

[Ian1981]

The way they build houses nowadays, just think of the nightmare involved when they need rewiring in years to come.
Trying to get your floor up........
Holes in the ceilings when no access above.
Hopefully I'll be on the way to retirement.
Only another 30 -40 years to go!

 

[jstephens251]

Not a lot of choice really . They can not have it always.

no, I can't see there will be to be honest. Customer is in love with downlights everywhere, speakers all over the place so its the only way

 

[Leesparkykent]

Bit of roofing batten and a nail gun...the builder should have that sorted in no time.

 

[davesparks]

Doesn't anyone have site meetings with the architwat on jobs like this any more?

 

[Dave OCD]

The trouble is although architects are often perceived as intelligent professionals common sense isn't that common.

 

[davesparks]

The trouble is although architects are often perceived as intelligent professionals common sense isn't that common.

I can't say I've ever perceived the modern ones as such!

We had a couple we worked with regularly when I was an apprentice, proper old-school traditional architects who respected the tradesmen and actually discussed things. They even drew plans by hand, to scale, with dimensions and good notes!

 

[jstephens251]

Doesn't anyone have site meetings with the architwat on jobs like this any more?

No, nothing at all its all by email. I've recently been brought on board and called round earlier to see this garbage.
I find it incredible how these places get built with no thought to electrics/plumbing
Seems every new build i do you have to scrape by to get wires in and comply with the good old regs.

 

[bigspark17]

Cross baten the ceiling?

 

[Des 56]

I once did a new build a quite a few years back,the architects name was Ian Goodenough
It is a genuine name for a guy that actually was good enough

 

[Dave OCD]

Wow, I can see you're right up to speed on this thread.

Cross baten the ceiling?

 

[Toneyz]

I think the consensus is counter batten the ceilings Don't know what the walls are like but could not some of the RFC etc. cable runs go in horizontal to the sockets

 

[LankyWill]

I bet if you ripped the battens off and pulled that quilt insulation back it would reveal some joists. How else has wet pants plumbed it? Probably a case of impatient builder not waiting for you to first fix. Tell him to get the mongo labour in with a hammer to rip that insulation back.

 

[Toneyz]

Wet pants could be putting in floor however I was thinking along the same lines but the photo wasn't conclusive

 

[Leesparkykent]

I done a house similar to this last year. The company who supplied the timber frame was Scandia-Hus and the insulation looks the same. The builder reckoned the insulation was nearer the £200 mark a roll. The insulation was stapled to the rafters and studs. The studs were cross battened and the ceilings were dropped just enough to get down lights in using MF. The house wasn't far off passive house status.

 

[LankyWill]

That insulation is always made redundant anyway, as soon as you nail it on you create thermal bridging reducing the insualting properties by minimum 40%

 

[ValewoodElectric]

Architects give me headaches. They design everything with the smallest of tolerances because it if meets code it meets code. Sure it can be built and maintained but if they used their head a little bit and designed with more room in mind, installation would go much faster and be cheaper in the long run. As Ian said at the top of the page, maintenance rewiring on this is going to be a nightmare.

 

[stummish]

I love architects. They're so deluded. The rewire I'm doing at the moment has no measurements or consideration for routing pipes/cables.

I once had a fire alarm call point marked in the middle of a doorway! It even showed which way the door handed, I was so tempted to drop a 20mm steel in the middle of the hallway and send the pic to the architect for his critique!

Back on topic, batten off the ceiling, collingwood halers h2 fit in a 60mm void. Notch and joist plate cable routes, plasterer will hate you but that's pretty standard anyway. When they call you for any modifications in years to come tell them they'll have to have surface trunking, that'll be a laugh!

 

[jstephens251]

I bet if you ripped the battens off and pulled that quilt insulation back it would reveal some joists. How else has wet pants plumbed it? Probably a case of impatient builder not waiting for you to first fix. Tell him to get the mongo labour in with a hammer to rip that insulation back.

Hi, plumber is ok its UFH. All piping is going in concrete floor so he's sorted.
Theres no builder really its a timber frame company who have built and insulated the shell. Insulation is stapled really tight so I would basically make it a right mess pulling it apart.
Customer is enquiring on battening ceiling out which hopefully happens.

cheers for help guys, much appreciated.

 

[Toneyz]

This company does a lot of kit type construction for the self build market a gang comes along and erects the frame in a couple of days then goes off site they would not come and go around trades it would not surprise me if there is a joist above insulation.

 

[cliffed]

Like the guys say,only way is to cross batten

 

[Midwest]

I once did a new build a quite a few years back,the architects name was Ian Goodenough
It is a genuine name for a guy that actually was good enough

As a bit of light hearted relief, I worked with a guy called Richard Cockhead, apparently it's pronounced 'Cohead', and for some reason, he insisted on being called Richard.

Also knew a cop called Police Constable Crook.

 

[Wilko]

Those of us who remember Maxwell Smart - I have met his namesake who was in the non comedic branch of that endeavour. I told him to get a real alias as that one was taken. He was not amused

 

[Lee42]

Hi.

If there is no chance of cross battening I would notch the joist and put plates across them.

There is slim downlights that would fit and give great light output. I'll post an image off them.
The ones I have fitted in the past are aura enlite

I think keff do some slim speakers too

 

[jstephens251]

Hi.

If there is no chance of cross battening I would notch the joist and put plates across them.

There is slim downlights that would fit and give great light output. I'll post an image off them.
The ones I have fitted in the past are aura enlite

I think keff do some slim speakers too

View attachment 36423

Cheers.

So, in case this battening idea didn't pan out is notching the joist and putting plates on acceptable with regs?

 

[stummish]

I've never done it but I thought that's what joist plates were for. Someone else will have to confirm that.

 

[Lee42]

As long as a screw can't penetrate the plate I can't see a problem with it

 

[stummish]

@Lee42 the plate gives some nice mechanical protection, so you can bury at less than 50mm, but the other reason is the steel shores up the weak spot in the joist. Support strength comes from the top and bottom surface of a joist, the center doesn't do much to hold the rest up, so the steel replaces the lost strength is how I understand it.

Like I said though, never used them and my ideas are based on the wet toilet paper between my ears, not fancy evidence or proof.

 

[Lee42]

You will not need them to support the notch as looking at the picture they are not structurl joists. They look like 2 x 1 that have been nailed on over the top of the insulation so when plasterboarding they have something to screw to.
My main concern would be whoever is plasterboarding accidently screws through a cable. Which is why I would put plates over the notches.

Hope that helps

 

[davesparks]

If they won't batten the ceiling down then they can't have recessed lights or speakers, it's pretty simple really

 

[Lee42]

If they won't batten the ceiling down then they can't have recessed lights or speakers, it's pretty simple really

I agree on the speakers but there is recessed lights on the market that will fit in there.
The light in the picture i posted is only 25mm deep so once u add the depth of the plasterboard u will have enough room