Sparks vs Plumbers... What's the score?

[Deuce]

What's the beef?

Unusually, I'm a member of both electricians forums and plumbers forums, I work across both areas, in fact I frequently combine water and electricity in many varied and fun ways!

This leads me to ask why sparks and plumbers are forever complaining about each other in their own circles? I wonder if it's something to do with one feeling the other has the easier job? A spark might feel that whilst they need qualification, anyone can plumb in most instances. Whereas a plumber might feel that a spark has the luxury of knowing a good job when they complete it will remain a good job for a very long time, but a plumber can do everything right and leak check, pressure test etc and then a day later, there is a leak - because they effectively work blind (in plumbing you rely upon method, you can rarely visually check the seal you create).

Or is it just because it's fun? I'm fine about it either way, just curious!

 

[static zap]

May have something to do with getting the best route through a new property! ( unless a well thought out one has already been provided !)
Two opposing teams .. (Now I'm talking football - of which I know Less)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I only take the mick out of plumbers, because it’s the expected thing.
Also it’s fun.

 

[dmxtothemax]

way way back in the olden days, when domestic electical systems arrived electrical wiring was installed in metal conduits, so in reality plumbers where the first electricians. Thats why we pick on the plumbers, cause we go way back, brothers in arms.

 

[The Ghost]

I have no such animosity/humour with regards to Plumbers. I am surprised and bemused when I see such. I think trades tend to get aggravated at each other when on site for instance the electrician finds the plumber has notched out all the joists he was planning to route his cables through or indeed already has and the plumber puts his pipes right by the cables! Or the plasterers who don't follow the plan on cabling and leave them in the wall and plaster in all the sockets so we have to go around and hammer out all the plaster and remove it from all the cables x 50 by which time you are muttering under your breath at the very least.

 

[Nigel]

I really do not get it to be honest. Plumbers will never be at a knowledge level of electricians - never. Plumbing is a DIY job.

 

[Wilko]

Just another outcome of stereotyping, I reckon.
Without getting tooo deep - we have met the enemy of equality, and the enemy is us.

 

[telectrix]

that's a bit profound, so far before beer o'clock.

 

[Andy78]

I really do not get it to be honest. Plumbers will never be at a knowledge level of electricians - never. Plumbing is a DIY job.

Bingo ! There you go, that's why they don't like us. Arrogance and superiority complexes.

 

[Nigel]

Bingo ! There you go, that's why they don't like us. Arrogance and superiority complexes.

It is true though isn't it?

 

[Andy78]

It is true though isn't it?

Honestly I don't think I can agree with that generalisation in an industry where many electricians are not at the knowledge level of electricians.

 

[snowhead]

I don't do Domestic,( in fact I dont' do anything now, I've just retired)

But it seems to me that the main issue as stated above is wanting to be in the same location with Cables, pipes and accessories in houses as determined onsite.
That's down to no project management in Domestics.

(Ignoring Plasterers who have always wanted to fill every hole, and chippys who have always wanted to put screws and nails through cables whether in the wall or floor.)

This isn't an issue in Non domestic as services routes are usually planned and agreed before work starts.

Imagine the arguements onsite when H&V ductwork, Air con pipework, sprinkler systems, Fire alarms, Intruder alarms, Electrical, Plumbing, Data wiring all want to run the same route.

 

[Deuce]

I really do not get it to be honest. Plumbers will never be at a knowledge level of electricians - never. Plumbing is a DIY job.

Not true! You line up a bunch of Joe blogs and we can challenge each to rewire 10 plugs, and also fit 10 compression fittings. I reckon when the results are tested more of the plugs would pass than the compression joints.

You maybe underestimate a plumbers tactile ability to feel a joint and know if it's sound or not, along with a general sixth sense for how water is seeking to undermine them at any opportunity.

Another example: Most connections made by seasoned sparks are good, but few are 100% perfect. Let's say most are 99.9% as perfect as they could ever be though, and more than good enough. In a plumbers world a 99.9% perfect connection is an abject failure. 99.999% is still a tiny drip every 10 minutes and still a failure. It's 100% or failure.

 

[Nigel]

Not true! You line up a bunch of Joe blogs and we can challenge each to rewire 10 plugs, and also fit 10 compression fittings. I reckon when the results are tested more of the plugs would pass than the compression joints.

You maybe underestimate a plumbers tactile ability to feel a joint and know if it's sound or not, along with a general sixth sense for how water is seeking to undermine them at any opportunity.

Another example: Most connections made by seasoned sparks are good, but few are 100% perfect. Let's say most are 99.9% as perfect as they could ever be though, and more than good enough. In a plumbers world a 99.9% perfect connection is an abject failure. 99.999% is still a tiny drip every 10 minutes and still a failure. It's 100% or failure.

You maybe underestimate Essex's ability to troll.

 

[FatAlan]

Respect to both trades. Big differences between basic domestic installers and experienced sparks who design and install complex installations. Likewise with plumbers and complex heating engineers plus the obvious overlap between the two.

 

[Andy78]

Respect to both trades. Big differences between basic domestic installers and experienced sparks who design and install complex installations. Likewise with plumbers and complex heating engineers plus the obvious overlap between the two.

I remember upsetting a guy once calling him a plumber. "I'm not a plumber I'm a heating engineer." I asked him what the difference was. "I don't do f***ing bogs !" he yelled.

 

[Billsays]

Its simple.........We have to control and manipulate an invisible force so dangerous that touching it can kill you and they work with excrement.

 

[solarsavings]

they work with excrement.

Custards can be like that.

 

[LankyWill]

A lot of the really good plumbers I’ve worked with are extremely knowledgable and very forward thinking. Pipe fitters (commercial plumbers) are another highly skilled trade at the same level as electricians.

I think we’re equal, I can’t do what they can and they can’t do what I can. It’s the arrogant and ignorant electricians that annoy me more, I can see why everyone thinks we’re ----s at times.

 

[telectrix]

Not true! You line up a bunch of Joe blogs and we can challenge each to rewire 10 plugs, and also fit 10 compression fittings. I reckon when the results are tested more of the plugs would pass than the compression joints.

You maybe underestimate a plumbers tactile ability to feel a joint and know if it's sound or not, along with a general sixth sense for how water is seeking to undermine them at any opportunity.

Another example: Most connections made by seasoned sparks are good, but few are 100% perfect. Let's say most are 99.9% as perfect as they could ever be though, and more than good enough. In a plumbers world a 99.9% perfect connection is an abject failure. 99.999% is still a tiny drip every 10 minutes and still a failure. It's 100% or failure.

maybe so, but how many plumbers pressure test all their pipework for potential leaks before introducing water? we have to. it's called IR testing. wet-pants gets it wrong, someone gets wet. we get it wrong, someone may die.

 

[Deuce]

maybe so, but how many plumbers pressure test all their pipework for potential leaks before introducing water? we have to. it's called IR testing. wet-pants gets it wrong, someone gets wet. we get it wrong, someone may die.

Most do, I certainly do. Leaks cause dangerous and/or expensive problems too. Perhaps not as deadly as electricity for the most part, but I would say the potential of a well installed plumbing system to cause problem far exceeds that of a well installed electrical system. A plumber can do everything right and still get a suprise and unfortunate result.

 

[telectrix]

A plumber can do everything right and still get a suprise and unfortunate result.

so can an electricinn when plumber fits a radiator in front of his already fixed socket back box, or runs pipes in front of a CU. or when wood butcher/boarder nails /screws through a cable, knowing full well that said cable is in a prescribed zone. not many cases of electricians screwing stuff to water pipes.

 

[Deuce]

A plumber can do everything right and still get a suprise and unfortunate result.

so can an electricinn when plumber fits a radiator in front of his already fixed socket back box, or runs pipes in front of a CU. or when wood butcher/boarder nails /screws through a cable, knowing full well that said cable is in a prescribed zone. not many cases of electricians screwing stuff to water pipes.

Hard to argue with that. I would say there are less than considerate people in all trades but I have to admit I have never known a spark rupture a pipe, but certainly been plunged into the dark several times by various other tradespeople acting blindly.

 

[Octopus]

I really do not get it to be honest. Plumbers will never be at a knowledge level of electricians - never. Plumbing is a DIY job.

I've given you a "dislike" because the highlighted sentence above is so ignorant.

 

[Nigel]

I've given you a "dislike" because the highlighted sentence above is so ignorant.

You actually gave me a dumb.

 

[ipf]

You actually gave me a dumb.

That's a bit pointless…….take a runaway train slam to shut you up, Neil......

 

[Nigel]

That's a bit pointless…….take a runaway train slam to shut you up, Neil......

Or a sandwich.

 

[ipf]

Or a sandwich.

It'd have to be an old British Rail one......

 

[Deuce]

I knew when I started this thread it would be troll bait

But anyhow, seems that actually most people replying are fairly respectful of the other trades, and that it's mostly down to good humour - which of course, we all need.

As a side note, I spent the afternoon changing the downstairs bog for a nice new wall mounted throne. I can report that the pants remained dry throughout.

 

[Rosco]

I knew when I started this thread it would be troll bait

But anyhow, seems that actually most people replying are fairly respectful of the other trades, and that it's mostly down to good humour - which of course, we all need.

As a side note, I spent the afternoon changing the downstairs bog for a nice new wall mounted throne. I can report that the pants remained dry throughout.

Don’t worry mate they will have you back because of a leak they find in a different part of the house absolutely nowhere near where you have worked but will blame you anyway, no matter what sparks and plumbers think of each other customers will try the same tricks to both of us

 

[Deuce]

Don’t worry mate they will have you back because of a leak they find in a different part of the house absolutely nowhere near where you have worked but will blame you anyway, no matter what sparks and plumbers think of each other customers will try the same tricks to both of us

It was in my own house! But you're still correct - if at some point something else I never went near leaks, my wife will blame it on me, of that I'm certain

All trades can unite when discussing how inconvenient customers are. And wives.

 

[Des 56]

When you make attempt at trying (usually unsuccessfully)at getting a understanding of complex subjects that take real brain power We as electricians and them as plumbers occupy very low stnding in the measure of such things

Consequently we are just as dumb as the plumbers and neither of us are prepared to admit it is so

 

[Deuce]

When you make attempt at trying (usually unsuccessfully)at getting a understanding of complex subjects that take real brain power We as electricians and them as plumbers occupy very low stnding in the measure of such things

Consequently we are just as dumb as the plumbers and neither of us are prepared to admit it is so

I don't know... I think that anything that requires visualisation of the end solution and how to achieve it, working around specific limitations and challenges demonstrates a fairly healthy noggin

On site I can have a fairly detailed conversation about some automation kit I'm putting together with either PB or spark and generally either would be able to appreciate the purpose of the system and how/why it needs to work the way it does. They won't necessarily have much knowledge depth, but understand the principals.

A colleague once said "It's 99% knowledge, then the other 1% is the ability to apply it. Only about 1% of people seem to have that ability though". I think his point was that knowledge is vital to do the work, but all the knowledge in the world won't help an impractical person assemble it into a good result!

 

[ipf]

A colleague once said "It's 99% knowledge, then the other 1% is the ability to apply it. Only about 1% of people seem to have that ability though". I think his point was that knowledge is vital to do the work, but all the knowledge in the world won't help an impractical person assemble it into a good result!

….and all the practicability in the world won't help if you've no idea how to apply it by the rules.

 

[7029 dave]

Both trades demand the respect equally.

 

[Flanders]

Not sure if this post will help the debate ☺Wetpants Trashed My Van - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/wetpants-trashed-my-van.168453/

 

[telectrix]

Not sure if this post will help the debate ☺Wetpants Trashed My Van - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/wetpants-trashed-my-van.168453/

most wet-pants can't see what in front of their noses, let alone what,s behind them. then again, both are usually turds.

 

[Deuce]

….and all the practicability in the world won't help if you've no idea how to apply it by the rules.

That's a big part of the other 99% being knowledge that I was referring to.

 

[Deuce]

most wet-pants can't see what in front of their noses, let alone what,s behind them. then again, both are usually turds.

You're saying the van behind him was a turd?

 

[ipf]

most wet-pants can't see what in front of their noses, let alone what,s behind them. then again, both are usually turds.

A mate of mine bought a house and asked me to check things over. It ended up with replacement CU , among other things. A couple of months later, this is work done by a 'heating engineer', who installed a new boiler to a property. He broke into the downstairs RFC with a 20 amp 4 p joint box, under the floor.

 

[Deuce]

A mate of mine bought a house and asked me to check things over. It ended up with replacement CU , among other things. A couple of months later, this is work done by a 'heating engineer', who installed a new boiler to a property. He broke into the downstairs RFC with a 20 amp 4 p joint box, under the floor.

Wow, 20amp on a RFC... I guess he just had one in the back of the van and figured waste not want not?

Just out of interest is it the case now that all boilers have to be on a dedicated radial? Or for certain sizes is it still ok to spur off the RFC to a FCU, or incorporate the FCU into the ring directly? I only ask as I noticed mine is on a ring, and I thought a few years ago there was a reg change about that. It might just be a CORGI internal standard, not a formal regulation as such.

 

[ipf]

Wow, 20amp on a RFC... I guess he just had one in the back of the van and figured waste not want not?

Just out of interest is it the case now that all boilers have to be on a dedicated radial? Or for certain sizes is it still ok to spur off the RFC to a FCU, or incorporate the FCU into the ring directly? I only ask as I noticed mine is on a ring, and I thought a few years ago there was a reg change about that. It might just be a CORGI internal standard, not a formal regulation as such.

No need for a separate circuit. Depends on the heating system and size, really, but as long as there's local isolation and fuse, no problem.
In this case it was a quick repair job. I changed the JB, which was required anyway, but if I'd been installing the supply, I'd have put it on a new circuit for the sake of it......spares in the cu and only about 5 yards to the boiler.

 

[GBDamo]

Another example: Most connections made by seasoned sparks are good, but few are 100% perfect. Let's say most are 99.9% as perfect as they could ever be though, and more than good enough. In a plumbers world a 99.9% perfect connection is an abject failure. 99.999% is still a tiny drip every 10 minutes and still a failure. It's 100% or failure.

Not quite so,

I've seen fluxed joints hold cold water at full mains pressure without a drip.

I've seen a tee in a central heating pipe that was never soldered, only started leaking after twenty years+ when a new radiator was fitted.

I've seen a pipe clipped onto a protruding nail that was holding water.

Funny thing luck.

 

[Deuce]

Not quite so,

I've seen fluxed joints hold cold water at full mains pressure without a drip.

I've seen a tee in a central heating pipe that was never soldered, only started leaking after twenty years+ when a new radiator was fitted.

I've seen a pipe clipped onto a protruding nail that was holding water.

Funny thing luck.

Well in all 3 cases, a perfect seal was in place = no leaks

I still stand by what I said though, an electrical connection has to be good enough. A plumbing connection has to be absolute or it's a failure. And yes, sheer luck or a surprise snug fit can achieve a perfect seal but it's not a method I would rely upon!!

I employ the services of both trades, so in the end I see the value and skill in both. They are two very different trades too, although both share a hell bent desire to be the first to fix to stuff up the others planned route through a building.

 

[oracle]

Getting a plumber to repair my boiler was difficult. After 5 or six calls one guy said he would come but it cost £100 to arrive at my door.

He came and asked for the money so I told him I would pay him before he left and could he look at the boiler.

We went to the bathroom and he glanced at it then said he didn't know the make and could I pay him now I said lucky you look there's information and drawings on the top of the boiler.

He read them and fiddled with it for a bit then said it was an electrical fault and I needed to call an electrician and could I pay him now. I said you are really lucky, I am an electrician

He pointed to a part of the boiler and said this valve isn't opening, so I checked for voltage and said it's got a supply your valve is stuck.

I don't know where to get a new one so can you pay me now. I gave him the drawings again and showed him the contact details for the supplier

He phoned them and ordered one. He said that it would take two days and cost £150 including fitting and could I pay him now. I gave him the £100 and said I would pay the rest when he got the boiler working

Two days later the job was done and I paid him the balance. Who said you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

 

[ipf]

Getting a plumber to repair my boiler was difficult. After 5 or six calls one guy said he would come but it cost £100 to arrive at my door.

He came and asked for the money so I told him I would pay him before he left and could he look at the boiler.

We went to the bathroom and he glanced at it then said he didn't know the make and could I pay him now I said lucky you look there's information and drawings on the top of the boiler.

He read them and fiddled with it for a bit then said it was an electrical fault and I needed to call an electrician and could I pay him now. I said you are really lucky, I am an electrician

He pointed to a part of the boiler and said this valve isn't opening, so I checked for voltage and said it's got a supply your valve is stuck.

I don't know where to get a new one so can you pay me now. I gave him the drawings again and showed him the contact details for the supplier

He phoned them and ordered one. He said that it would take two days and cost £150 including fitting and could I pay him now. I gave him the £100 and said I would pay the rest when he got the boiler working

Two days later the job was done and I paid him the balance. Who said you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

With a job of that size he wouldn't have got a cent off me before it was in perfect working order.
These p****s want who want paying up front!...….has he no accounts at suppliers? Can't be much of a business if he pays up front for his materials.

 

[telectrix]

i pay for materials upfront. reason being is i don't want a huge account bill arriving 4 weeks after doing a job, then being quiet and using the monies for other things and then struggling to pay off the account. i always get an upfront payment of 50% from customer on any jobs over £200. works for me as a one man concern.

 

[ipf]

Getting a plumber to repair my boiler was difficult. After 5 or six calls one guy said he would come but it cost £100 to arrive at my door.

i pay for materials upfront. reason being is i don't want a huge account bill arriving 4 weeks after doing a job, then being quiet and using the monies for other things and then struggling to pay off the account. i always get an upfront payment of 50% from customer on any jobs over £200. works for me as a one man concern.

Fair enough tel, as a one man band in your case, with agreement made. But cash for turning up when he's not even seen the job is rubbish......and I don't think, in a similar situation, you would be saying 'give me 100 up front before I change your light fitting......I'll get the stuff in a couple a days and install it, before final payment'.
……..and I'd want a safety certificate for the work.

Fair enough tel, as a one man band in your case, with agreement made. But cash for turning up when he's not even seen the job is rubbish......and I don't think, in a similar situation, you would be saying 'give me 100 up front before I change your light fitting......I'll get the stuff in a couple a days and install it, before final payment'.
……..and I'd want a safety certificate for the work.​