What is a Domestic Installer ?

[Dave Buchan]

Hi guys,

Here's an interesting one for you, if you look at the attachment on this post from the IET they define a domestic installer as " not an electrician "

If you go to the niceic website and click the 'FIND ELECTRICIAN' tab and select 'ALL ELECTRICAL WORK' it will display various domestic installers and approved contractors in your local area.

So is the domestic installer an ELECTRICIAN?

According to the people who write the national safety standards apparently this is not the case.......

Yet the guys who regulate them for crucial safety reasons seem to know otherwise.....

So who is right?

The IET

or

NICEIC

 

[gibo]

the EAL Part P course is being phased out in 2012 and replaced with a City and Guilds Level 3 qualification. So it looks like they are toughening it up

 

[Adam W]

The 2377 and 2382 are also level 3 qualifications, and they're easy open book multiple choice tests.
Changing the level is just ticking a box.

 

[leesturgess]

peoples life choices change over the years. I ended up in retail management after my A levels. I should be entitled to change careers if I wish and not be excluded from something if I didn't choose it when I was 16, ill advised and unwise.

you stick to your guns gibo its never to late

 

[gibo]

they are level 3 in PAT testing and wiring regs not installation. can't be sure til details are released but it's meant to be much more involved than what's available now. I'm a domestic installer but not interested in doing the bare minimum. at the moment the system is open to abuse and as with everything it will be abused

 

[Adam W]

This is what my college lecturers and I can't understand - you get a level 3 for doing 3 years in installation involving several practical tests, 2 written exams and several multiple choice tests, yet you can get a level 3 from a multiple choice test in reading a book.

 

[gibo]

the level 2 part p at the moment is multi choice and completed modules. not open book tho. I believe they are addressing concerns that it's too easy to do 5 weeks and set up on your own with the new course. however, I'll reserve judgement til it's all announced properly. I am a domestic installer and defend others on here but its because most will be continuing their training in the workplace. there are only a minority that think they can go it alone as soon as courses are finished. unfortunately we are all tarred with the same brush

 

[sbrown2]

For what its worth I think peoples(average mans) exposure to technology has vastly improved fromthe times of the original apprenticeship. I go into B&Q now and my lad (7 years old) is asking me about consumer units, switch, taps, boilers. Thus any part intelligent person will have given thought to how they could integrate this exposure and knowledge into entering a trade or career. Underpinning knowledge is important but not massively at craft level. Its more about doing a good job and knowing your limitations. Initially it surprised me that you could be trading as an installer/electrician so quickly but now I tend to look at the resources available to complete tasks. You can get online walk throughs for fitting a consumer unit and doing the tests. There will always be a place for the technicians and the engineers/managers and for many that feel they are being queezed they will have to consider moving into these roles.

 

[dandb]

I have to agree that I am against people who do 4 week course and then start their own company. But I studied for 6 years. I am extremely hard working and ensure that the work I complete safe and too a standard where I would be happy if it were in my own home, and I have an OCD.

Anyway I chose to become a DI as thats all I need to be. I have contracts with major house builders and I am a 1 man band. I will agree I might not have the experience than most of you chaps here but I work to the regs and isnt that what we all need to do?

I have carried out PIR's on new installations where someone works for a large electrical contractor and there have been numerous faults. I have also seen corners cut by the employees of the larger companies because its 4:30 on a friday and they want to get home.

I do this job because I love electrics and love building circuits. But I find it upsetting that fellow electricians, 50% of you, would say that I am not a proper electrician. Are we all not trying to do the same job.

:aureola:

 

[Engineer54]

You sound OK to me dandb!! And to prove it, here's your first ''Thank You!!!

 

[pauljpickering8]

I do this job because I love electrics and love building circuits. But I find it upsetting that fellow electricians, 50% of you, would say that I am not a proper electrician. Are we all not trying to do the same job.

:aureola:

I'd probably say more like 80% lol.

Just one question, if you studied for 6 years why would you no do the correct technical exams and become a "properly qualified" electrician. Although you only do houses at the minute you never know when you might want to expand. To me you are not a "proper" electrician unless you can show me your JIB card, or have the quals required to get a JIB card. No offense.

 

[sbrown2]

why do more? Do the minimum to earn money and get in the jobs market. Chances are all of the people coming into the electrical trade at an older age have got better marketing skills to attain the work.

 

[baldsparkies]

My honest opinion, after a lot of years and seeing all kinds of electricians is that. A domestic installer who has never gained experiance in the commercial world, ie on 3 phase work, composite panel wiring, conduit, trunking and tray switchgear and fault finding ect, ect, Should be considered an electrician, but with limited experiance. House bashing is basic electrical work. I know I know rant rave rant, but the fact is its true.
Commercial and industrial electrics require higher levels of knowledge and skills. Part P in the domestic world has proven this,5 week courses and your qualified, really !!! I don't think so.
These comments will upset none but the lesser experianced guys, Domestic electricians have there place yes, of course. But they do have limited knowledge. I am not talking about the guys who have done commercial work and chosen the domestic option, I am talking about the guys who have never done anything else. Sorry lads but lets be honest here. Being competant is about knowing what you DONT know. Not knowing what you do.

So as not to confuse,
Domestic Electrician (In my opinion is an Electrician)
Domestic Installer NO WAY. At best a guy who appreciates he needs to have a level of knowledge to complete minor electrical tasks, for the sake of safety. AT WORST A guy who wants to find the quickest and easiest route to confusing the general public into believing he is an Electrician.
Domestic/Commercial/ Industrial Electrician (The real deal) A full on sparks.

 

[sbrown2]

problem is with certain schemes and passing 2391 you can sign off for domestic work and then they throw in commercial and industrial for free!!!!!!!!!

 

[1shortcircuit]

Being competant is about knowing what you DONT know. Not knowing what you do.

competent- 1. having sufficient skill, knowledge, etc.; capable

 

[andrew692003]

My honest opinion, after a lot of years and seeing all kinds of electricians is that. A domestic installer who has never gained experiance in the commercial world, ie on 3 phase work, composite panel wiring, conduit, trunking and tray switchgear and fault finding ect, ect, Should be considered an electrician, but with limited experiance. House bashing is basic electrical work. I know I know rant rave rant, but the fact is its true.
Commercial and industrial electrics require higher levels of knowledge and skills. Part P in the domestic world has proven this,5 week courses and your qualified, really !!! I don't think so.

I hear what you're saying and in part agree with that but I've worked in industrial/commercial premises quite a bit but in the main I mostly work domestic/commercial.

I have seen quite a few 'Industrial' electricians/technicians that may know how to wire a ring main or a lighting circuit but you put them in a dwelling house thats 100 + (or any other house for that matter) year old and say 'go wire that'!! The mess is unimaginable because they have no idea how to run or apply any kind of grace to doing that job. It takes a certain skill to be able to do that and years of experience. I think it works both ways!!

Cheers

 

[Engineer54]

I have seen quite a few 'Industrial' electricians/technicians that may know how to wire a ring main or a lighting circuit but you put them in a dwelling house thats 100 + (or any other house for that matter) year old and say 'go wire that'!! The mess is unimaginable because they have no idea how to run or apply any kind of grace to doing that job. It takes a certain skill to be able to do that and years of experience. I think it works both ways!!

Cheers

The difference being, .....with a minimum of guidance an industrial/commercial electrician will be quite capable of wiring a domestic dwelling!! ...Whereas asking a Domestic electrician to undertake an industrial electricians position would not work, not without some very real intensive training... And it's nothing to do with being able to throw in conduit and trunking installations and the like, but everything to do with 3 Phase, motors, motor control, cable jointing, breaker set-ups, PLC programming, fault finding. ...Do i need to go on???

 

[baldsparkies]

I don't feel a lack of experiance is any excuse for not taking care in someones home. I can see your point of view, and feel there is merit in what you say.
In fairness though years of experiance to wire a house ??
A bit of forward planning, knowing which way your boards and joists run, Not taking up to many boards cus a bit of MT 2 lid can work wonders, following routes from existing wiring, and pulling in cables through old capping with just a bit of chopping away where neccassary if possible can all aid in a good clean job. Tidying as you go and using a vacuam cleaner and dust sheets isn't rocket science either.
I have to say, I would rather have a commercial sparks give me a hand with a domestic rewire, than a domestic sparks, give me a hand with a commercial re wire. Having experienced both scenarios I would tend to hold true to what I have said.

 

[baldsparkies]

Great minds Engi 54 lol.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't feel a lack of experiance is any excuse for not taking care in someones home. I can see your point of view, and feel there is merit in what you say.
In fairness though years of experiance to wire a house ??
A bit of forward planning, knowing which way your boards and joists run, Not taking up to many boards cus a bit of MT 2 lid can work wonders, following routes from existing wiring, and pulling in cables through old capping with just a bit of chopping away where neccassary if possible can all aid in a good clean job. Tidying as you go and using a vacuam cleaner and dust sheets isn't rocket science either.
I have to say, I would rather have a commercial sparks give me a hand with a domestic rewire, than a domestic sparks, give me a hand with a commercial re wire. Having experienced both scenarios I would tend to hold true to what I have said.

I'm not saying that an industrial type electrician will be able to make a profit by undertaking domestic work, straight off the bat, so to speak, as it will probably take him 3 times as long... But it would when finished be done to a good standard, and i doubt if he'd have to be shown ''how to'' twice!!...lol!!

Most of these electricians would have gone through a general training taking in BS7671 anyway, just that they would need a little guidance on what they had over the years ...Forgotten!!

 

[edrobbo8]

Is this not similar with all the CPCS cards and the like? For example, I can drive AND operate a rough terrain telescopic handler (JCB Loadall to you and me) but because I did the certificate with Lantra, I can't drive one on a building site? Does that make me a competent operator? Similar with 360s, you can hold a ticket for a 21 tonne machine, yet on some sites you wouldn't be allowed to drive a 3.5 tonne machine?!

So the domestic installer argument is slightly similar, and maybe is just catching up with the other construction industries in how it certificates people?

 

[OllieNotts]

I can understand the ill feeling towards the 5 week lads, especially those who say they have no choice but then I guess they haven't actually done anything wrong. I am starting college full time in sept for level 2 2330 and will hopefully complete level 3 the year after. I have a question.....what will I be?It's all about 5 week lads or full on apprentiships and nothing has been said about the lad who like me gives up his full time job to go on an agency driving at weekends to keep the bills paid while trying to better myself etc. I am concerned about the apparent lack of work and amount of non sparks carrying out spark work but my long term goal is com/ind not domestic so not sure where I'll start lol Just to add also, please remember every job Market is saturated at the minute these are the times. I drive an artic for £7.50 an hour as it's seen as unskilled work, I've already been warned I'll only earn £11-12 upon qualification if I get a job etc which would be great for me and my family life! Anyway just wondered how us college go'ers are seen in the trade as we're neither of the breed currently being argued about

 

[shanky887614]

go for the 2330 lvl2 i just finished mine a few weeks ago,

with what they were saying a few pages back

someone with city + guilds 2330 lvl2 is only qulified to install stuff and do dead tests - bassically useless becasue you have to do live tests to sign it off

the reason they say that people with 2330 lvl3 are electricians is that they are allowed to sign of there own work but they recomend that you do c+g 2391 to cover your own back if you get taken to court

all you really need is lvl3/lvl3 nvq electrical

our tutor recomends am2 and after that they have been telling us you dont need to go any further

 

[dandb]

I'd probably say more like 80% lol.

Just one question, if you studied for 6 years why would you no do the correct technical exams and become a "properly qualified" electrician. Although you only do houses at the minute you never know when you might want to expand. To me you are not a "proper" electrician unless you can show me your JIB card, or have the quals required to get a JIB card. No offense.

2330 lvl 2 and 3
17th Edition
Part P
2391

Paul

When/If I need to expand my business I will do. But at the moment it really doesnt matter if I have Electrical Contactor or Domestic Installer on the side of my van.

Within a domestic property I can do the same job as anyone on here. So if your saying I am not a 'proper electrician' then no-one is.

Oh yeah.......No offense

 

[Spectrum]

When I last looked at Domestic Installer status they were not allowed to carry out Periodic Inspection Reports. Now it would appear that they are allowed. Most of the DI's that I have met seem barely able to change a plug top let alone comment on the safety of an installation.

 

[Big n Daft]

I cant understand why anybody would want to enter a trade as divided and torn apart as ours.
If somebdoy asks me 'what trade shall i do', wood butcher is the answer for the following reasons:
1, More pay
2, Better thought of
3, No schemes welching money from you for the right to do your chosen trade.
4, No body telling you cant cut a particular type of wood because youve not got the certification.
And most of
5, Once a joiner always a joiner. You dont find many 25yr joiners unable to work on domestic properties do you? And having to pay for the privilage.:banghead:

Thats why this trade is knackered.
All those that want to join the trade, carry on. But please, do it properly. Work yourself up to the level of sparks.
To me its all very simple, you are semi skilled/trainee until you can carry out ALL aspects of electrical installation work, have enough time behind you and passed the correct eggsams:cheesy:.
In order to answer the next question. Yes, a domestic installer is semi skilled and should be supervised at all times because they are not electricians.
This kids to feed, mortgage to pay argument is not good enough. Be a joiner you've got far less chance of starting a fire.
Just one last question for those wanting to get into the trade to earn money, why did you choose leccying? My guess is because people will take the easiest route to earn good money and Gas Safe is a bit difficult, isnt it?
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm a very disgruntled 25yr bear thats sick to the back teeth of watching his trade carved up to satisfy greedy money men that have no right to tell me what I cannot do when they dont know a IGBT from an MGB GT. Labourers and apprentices used to work on houses to gain experience, now its whole new trade!!!! What a load of old rubbish.
If you want to become an electrician then. become one. Dont use a DI course to get a foot in the door, because its worth nothing, go and be a sparks mate for a few years whilst going to college then have a go at an AM2.

 

[markharris]

Boring thread which has been done to death, nothing will change, deal with it .

 

[Big n Daft]

Boring thread which has been done to death, nothing will change, deal with it .

Read summat else then.
Leave this to those that care about the trade.

 

[focusphil]

I cant understand why anybody would want to enter a trade as divided and torn apart as ours.
If somebdoy asks me 'what trade shall i do', wood butcher is the answer for the following reasons:
1, More pay
2, Better thought of
3, No schemes welching money from you for the right to do your chosen trade.
4, No body telling you cant cut a particular type of wood because youve not got the certification.
And most of
5, Once a joiner always a joiner. You dont find many 25yr joiners unable to work on domestic properties do you? And having to pay for the privilage.:banghead:

Thats why this trade is knackered.
All those that want to join the trade, carry on. But please, do it properly. Work yourself up to the level of sparks.
To me its all very simple, you are semi skilled/trainee until you can carry out ALL aspects of electrical installation work, have enough time behind you and passed the correct eggsams:cheesy:.
In order to answer the next question. Yes, a domestic installer is semi skilled and should be supervised at all times because they are not electricians.
This kids to feed, mortgage to pay argument is not good enough. Be a joiner you've got far less chance of starting a fire.
Just one last question for those wanting to get into the trade to earn money, why did you choose leccying? My guess is because people will take the easiest route to earn good money and Gas Safe is a bit difficult, isnt it?
Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but I'm a very disgruntled 25yr bear thats sick to the back teeth of watching his trade carved up to satisfy greedy money men that have no right to tell me what I cannot do when they dont know a IGBT from an MGB GT. Labourers and apprentices used to work on houses to gain experience, now its whole new trade!!!! What a load of old rubbish.
If you want to become an electrician then. become one. Dont use a DI course to get a foot in the door, because its worth nothing, go and be a sparks mate for a few years whilst going to college then have a go at an AM2.

How derogatory of other trades (wood butchers) if I were you I wouldn't go voicing your opinion around on many sites!
as for domestic installers I personally think it requires a great deal of care and skill to work in peoples houses,I have seen commercial / industrial sparkys working on expensive
propertys and they dont have the finesse, if you were working on domestics would you say to the client THIS IS NOT SKILLED WORK I WILL CHARGE YOU LESS!!!

(why do some people think they're so special)

 

[Big n Daft]

How derogatory of other trades (wood butchers) if I were you I wouldn't go voicing your opinion around on many sites!
as for domestic installers I personally think it requires a great deal of care and skill to work in peoples houses,I have seen commercial / industrial sparkys working on expensive
propertys and they dont have the finesse, if you were working on domestics would you say to the client THIS IS NOT SKILLED WORK I WILL CHARGE YOU LESS!!!

(why do some people think they're so special)

First off, I guess youve not worked many sites with a decent amount of banter.
Second, yes it does take care to work in peoples houses but skill is pushing it bit. I'll not even comment on the finesse..........
Third, I do charge less. Householders do not pay the rates I demand for commercial/industrial work.
Fourth, I am special because I can do so much more than wire a bloody house that anybody with 7 weeks training can do
:cheesy:

 

[focusphil]

First off, I guess youve not worked many sites with a decent amount of banter.
Second, yes it does take care to work in peoples houses but skill is pushing it bit. I'll not even comment on the finesse..........
Third, I do charge less. Householders do not pay the rates I demand for commercial/industrial work.
Fourth, I am special because I can do so much more than wire a bloody house that anybody with 7 weeks training can do
:cheesy:

so let the house bashers bash and dont moan,you do your proper work !!!!

 

[markharris]

care about the trade my --- ! its just full of people dripping that they got seen off for two or three years making tea, when people have become equally qualified in a fraction of the time.....I'm done!

 

[markharris]

so let the house bashers bash and dont moan,you do your proper work !!!!

I agree.... blah ! blah ! I did an apprenticeship which makes me a fully qualified rocket scienctist yada-yada-yada
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[baldsparkies]

Now for a direct comparison. Topic aside though.
I love to fly light aircraft in my spare time. Cessna 180 single prop mainly.
On a flight to the states, another passenger got into conversation with me and said "So could you fly this 747 then ??
I replied, I may have a better chance than someone who has never flown an aircraft before. But I simply do not have the expertise or experiance to handle a heavy haul 4 engined trans-atlantic jet.
Common sense, logical answer to a chap who really had no real concept of the differance between the two. (Which is fair enough) some people don't.
When I see a commercial airline pilot, and because I have a limited concept of aircraft flight and control, I am full of admiration for there abilities and level of training. Bottom line, they are commited professionals who have gone the extra miles to become what they are within there profession.
Now, for the love of pete, can you guys who are limited to house bashing domestic work, use a little bit of common, and admire those who have chosen to study hard and gain the experiance to become commercial installation electricians. It IS the extra mile and should be given the respect it deserves.

 

[focusphil]

Now for a direct comparison. Topic aside though.
I love to fly light aircraft in my spare time. Cessna 180 single prop mainly.
On a flight to the states, another passenger got into conversation with me and said "So could you fly this 747 then ??
I replied, I may have a better chance than someone who has never flown an aircraft before. But I simply do not have the expertise or experiance to handle a heavy haul 4 engined trans-atlantic jet.
Common sense, logical answer to a chap who really had no real concept of the differance between the two. (Which is fair enough) some people don't.
When I see a commercial airline pilot, and because I have a limited concept of aircraft flight and control, I am full of admiration for there abilities and level of training. Bottom line, they are commited professionals who have gone the extra miles to become what they are within there profession.
Now, for the love of pete, can you guys who are limited to house bashing domestic work, use a little bit of common, and admire those who have chosen to study hard and gain the experiance to become commercial installation electricians. It IS the extra mile and should be given the respect it deserves.

domestic installers are not the ones moaning! Have you heard the saying (you have to give respect to earn respect)

 

[Engineer54]

care about the trade my --- ! its just full of people dripping that they got seen off for two or three years making tea, when people have become equally qualified in a fraction of the time.....I'm done!

Often heard this type of crap about apprenticeships, generally from those that never did a full indentured apprenticeship, or anything like one. But i'm sure they would know best, ...Right??

You sir, are talking absolute rot!! and that's being Kind to you!!!

 

[markharris]

Now for a direct comparison. Topic aside though.
I love to fly light aircraft in my spare time. Cessna 180 single prop mainly.
On a flight to the states, another passenger got into conversation with me and said "So could you fly this 747 then ??
I replied, I may have a better chance than someone who has never flown an aircraft before. But I simply do not have the expertise or experiance to handle a heavy haul 4 engined trans-atlantic jet.
Common sense, logical answer to a chap who really had no real concept of the differance between the two. (Which is fair enough) some people don't.
When I see a commercial airline pilot, and because I have a limited concept of aircraft flight and control, I am full of admiration for there abilities and level of training. Bottom line, they are commited professionals who have gone the extra miles to become what they are within there profession.
Now, for the love of pete, can you guys who are limited to house bashing domestic work, use a little bit of common, and admire those who have chosen to study hard and gain the experiance to become commercial installation electricians. It IS the extra mile and should be given the respect it deserves.

what utter bollox, your'e now comparing an apprenticeship served electrician as an elite example of a human being. Working in commercial installations isn't difficult so don't try and make out your a nuclear physicist. The powers that be who are more qualified than you...yeah! even you, have decided that these six week wonders can do the job maybe not aswell as you to begin with, but with a little time and experience will develop into capable and enthusiastic electricians. So face the fact that people don't need to spend three years getting £100 a week, going to college to once a week, and making tea 100 times a week to become qualified..end of!

 

[grimysparks80]

Now for a direct comparison. Topic aside though.
I love to fly light aircraft in my spare time. Cessna 180 single prop mainly.
On a flight to the states, another passenger got into conversation with me and said "So could you fly this 747 then ??
I replied, I may have a better chance than someone who has never flown an aircraft before. But I simply do not have the expertise or experiance to handle a heavy haul 4 engined trans-atlantic jet.
Common sense, logical answer to a chap who really had no real concept of the differance between the two. (Which is fair enough) some people don't.
When I see a commercial airline pilot, and because I have a limited concept of aircraft flight and control, I am full of admiration for there abilities and level of training. Bottom line, they are commited professionals who have gone the extra miles to become what they are within there profession.
Now, for the love of pete, can you guys who are limited to house bashing domestic work, use a little bit of common, and admire those who have chosen to study hard and gain the experiance to become commercial installation electricians. It IS the extra mile and should be given the respect it deserves.

I agree. I am a house basher at the mo. I have plenty of domestic and light commercial experience and did 3 year apprenticeship, but would struggle in an industrial job.
One thing i would say tho is that its pretty difficult to find experience doing industrial work as companies advertising it always want experience in the first place.
I am a careful and concientous worker and if i ever got chance to work under supervision on industrial stuff i like to think I could pick it up pretty quickly. But i often have a look for these kind of jobs and dont believe id have a chance with my limited experience.
It makes me wonder who will do these jobs when all you fine gents finally retire. Real apprenticeships seem to be a thing of the past.

 

[markharris]

QUOTE=Engineer54;330255]Often heard this type of crap about apprenticeships, generally from those that never did a full indentured apprenticeship, or anything like one. But i'm sure they would know best, ...Right??

You sir, are talking absolute rot!! and that's being Kind to you!!![/QUOTE]

tea, white one sugar......go!!!!!!
:wink5:

 

[baldsparkies]

domestic installers are not the ones moaning! Have you heard the saying (you have to give respect to earn respect)

Better than that my boy! I know what it means.

 

[Engineer54]

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about fully indentured apprentices!! I can assure you i wasn't ''allowed'' to make anyone tea during my period of training, ...Too much work going on!!!

This tea making lark is an old fallacy, i'm sure it went on to some small degree, but certainly not within factories and the larger electrical contracting companies....