Showers

[sw-electrical]

Where in the regs does it state that an electric shower requires individual dp isolation, ie a 50A pullcord. The circuit is protected by DP 30mA 63A RCD and 40A SP MCB at the main board.

Reason for asking, i fitted new CU (due to fire damage) and done away with the separate RCD that had been fitted next to the old board. But when testing i realised that there wasn't a pullcord isolator. If i was fitting from new, i would definately install one.

I can't find anything that states this is absolutely necessary, other than for local isolation for maintenance purposes.

Can anyone clarify.

Thanks

 

[telectrix]

is the RCD dedicated to the shower? if not, it would mean isolation of the shower would isolate any other circiuts on that RCD. otherwise, take account of manufacturers instructions. bad practice though, IMO, not to fit local isolation.

 

[sw-electrical]

It would have been prior to the board change as the only rcd was for the shower. Now it is part of Dual RCD split board. As this is only a flat, i've put shower,cooker and lights on one rcd and sockets on other. So at least 1 essential circuit is kept on. I agree this is bad practice, but this is circuit fitted approx 10-15 years ago, when bad practise was considered the norm.

Reg 537.2.1.1 states that the live conductors should be capable of being isolated and that can be done as a group of circuits by a common means.

This installation meets that requirement. I just wouldn't have done it that way.
Just want to be sure i haven't missed a safety requirement.

 

[kingeri]

But it probably specified local isolation in the manufacturers instructions anyway, so really it should have been fitted. Would it be a massive job to add one?

 

[sw-electrical]

No it wouldn't, but customer didn't want to spend his money. This wasn't a planned change for him,(board shorted due to loose connection), he phoned late one night to say electricity board had cut him off, and he had been with out electric for 2 days. I just assumed (mistake) that one was already fitted, so i feel its down to me. If its not safe i'll just fit one.

 

[telectrix]

can't find a specific reg. against this, only the fact that a fault on the shower would take out the other circuits on that RCD, thus causing inconvenience and possible danger , apart from being smelly.

 

[Thomas123]

No it wouldn't, but customer didn't want to spend his money. This wasn't a planned change for him,(board shorted due to loose connection), he phoned late one night to say electricity board had cut him off, and he had been with out electric for 2 days. I just assumed (mistake) that one was already fitted, so i feel its down to me. If its not safe i'll just fit one.

If I couldn't find it in the regs that you don't have to have local isolation, I would leave shower circuit isolated unless the customer agreed. At the end of the day it's your name going on the cert.

 

[Octopus]

As this is a repair I would leave as is and make sure the EIC is clearly stating no isolator and that fitting one would be recommended.

 

[telectrix]

so he's paying circa £350 -400 for a CU and won't pay an extra £50 -60 for a pull cord. tight fisted muppet.

 

[polo1]

As this is a repair I would leave as is and make sure the EIC is clearly stating no isolator and that fitting one would be recommended.

^^^^ ditto.

A bit harsh T, not everyone can find around £400 for expenditure which was not planned!

 

[oldtimer]

^^^^ ditto.

A bit harsh T, not everyone can find around £400 for expenditure which was not planned!

Its all about priorities some people will spend £25k on a car £800 to service it £50 a month to valet it but they will be damned if they are going to pay you £60 to fix a job remember they can be selfish and electrical safety is way down on the list

 

[telectrix]

my point was it's only an extra £50 ish on top of the CU cost. bet same customer don't blink an eyelid on spending £300 for a service on his nearly new BMW though,

 

[ian.settle1]

Sure the is not a DP switch hidden in a cupboard in the bathroom

 

[polo1]

T & O/T - yer just a pair of old synics! I don't disagree that what your're describing exists, just that we don't know sfa about the customer or his/her financial position. Although, if it's a male of advanced years living in Auld Reekie, your probably right:tongue3:.

 

[MDJ]

This one instance where the regs is an ---, no wonder so many sparkies think it is the Minimum standard, very Bad practise IMHO not to have a double pole Isolation unit whether a locally fixed wall switch or pull cord for a shower, ridiculous.

 

[sw-electrical]

so he's paying circa £350 -400 for a CU and won't pay an extra £50 -60 for a pull cord. tight fisted muppet.

Can't remember the last time i got £350 -400 for fitting a CU in my neck of the woods. Some sparkies around here are fitting them for £200-250, but they are using the cheap stuff.

 

[MDJ]

My recommendation SW is to be very professional with your customer and lecture him or her about the merit of a shower pull cord switch, it is almost unbelievable customers will cut corners, however as Murdoch pointed out in an earlier post, I would mention it on the EIC certificate or report, whatever you give them.

 

[rattlehead85]

This has always been a grey area. Normally finding a shower without an isolator/ mechanical switch while on an EICR i will put a C3 code against in for lack of local point of isolation.
Unclear if an isolation switch is present if it needs to be D.P or not if it is on a TN system.

 

[MDJ]

Doesn't need to Be Double pole at all your right rattlehead, only on a TT system, however as mentioned earlier the regs can be an ---.

 

[telectrix]

most showers will have in their instructions that it has to be supplied via a D/P switch with 3mm contact separation.

 

[Octopus]

Doesn't need to Be Double pole at all your right rattlehead, only on a TT system, however as mentioned earlier the regs can be an ---.

May not need to be DP but when you get nuisance tripping on the RCD the DP isolation will come in handy!

 

[sw-electrical]

My recommendation SW is to be very professional with your customer and lecture him or her about the merit of a shower pull cord switch, it is almost unbelievable customers will cut corners, however as Murdoch pointed out in an earlier post, I would mention it on the EIC certificate or report, whatever you give them.

I have done that, just annoyed with my self for missing it in the first place. I like to get things right 1st time, as adding later makes you look unprofessional, and in the customers eyes can be viewed as quoting cheap to get the job and then wacking the extras on later. I certainly don't like that being done to me when i get work done. If i go with a quote for a job, then that is the price i want to pay, not more. I do try and cover myself for the hidden problems, by stating major problems will incurr additional costs at an hourly rate, but most people question it, because it means that the price isn't fixed. I have lost a couple of jobs through this problem, but i think then that the customer probably wasn't worth the aggro.

 

[MDJ]

May not need to be DP but when you get nuisance tripping on the RCD the DP isolation will come in handy!

I'd never disagree with you on this fella, never your right, hence the regs being an --- haha

 

[Octopus]

I'd never disagree with you on this fella, never your right, hence the regs being an --- haha

Regs are definitely an ---.

Whether it be indoor fixed appliances or outdoor sockets / lights / sub mains to sheds ir garages I fit DP isolators 90+% of the time

 

[rattlehead85]

I'd never disagree with you on this fella, never your right, hence the regs being an --- haha

Regs are definitely an ---.

Whether it be indoor fixed appliances or outdoor sockets / lights / sub mains to sheds ir garages I fit DP isolators 90+% of the time

Yeah definately the best option as well as making things easier when fault finding.

 

[HandySparks]

My recommendation SW is to be very professional with your customer and lecture him or her ......

I suspect this is the way to lose the job. If someone stars lecturing me (other than in a classroom) they're shown the door!

Advising or recommending is the professional way to go.

 

[MDJ]

Dear oh Dear your the professional they put their trust in, IMO you may as well get bob from the pub to do the job for you if you haven't the go in you to be confident with your customers, I have so many I cannot cope with the work I get, I'm not saying you need to be rude, but they need to feel confident in your ability, whatever haha

 

[oldtimer]

T & O/T - yer just a pair of old synics! I don't disagree that what your're describing exists, just that we don't know sfa about the customer or his/her financial position. Although, if it's a male of advanced years living in Auld Reekie, your probably right:tongue3:.

Listen up chuchie I went to look at a job where his and her cars were sitting outside £25k &£15k he then proceeded to get me to fix his outside light on the premise of quoting to fix another. Sent him a quote of £110 and he said na no thanks I am off to Africa for a month on safari for my 70th 6 months laater called to say that light you fixed has went out again I replied ok it will be a callout charge he then said na dont bother . Isolated incident emm no people have different priorities and I have no problem with that years ago they would scream blue murder WHAT £60 ARE YOU MAD I AM NOT MADE OF MONEY whilst the mobile valet company was outside cleaning the car .

Some people will just not pay so fine ya Weegie lol

-

 

[telectrix]

i find it's generally those wo have the money/posh houses/cars/etc. that are the worst payers. many a time i've quoted working class families and have been asked if i want money up front for materials, and when job is done, cash on the nail, no problems.

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i find it's generally those wo have the money/posh houses/cars/etc. that are the worst payers. many a time i've quoted working class families and have been asked if i want money up front for materials, and when job is done, cash on the nail, no problems.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Where in the regs does it state that an electric shower requires individual dp isolation, ie a 50A pullcord. The circuit is protected by DP 30mA 63A RCD and 40A SP MCB at the main board.

Reason for asking, i fitted new CU (due to fire damage) and done away with the separate RCD that had been fitted next to the old board. But when testing i realised that there wasn't a pullcord isolator. If i was fitting from new, i would definately install one.

I can't find anything that states this is absolutely necessary, other than for local isolation for maintenance purposes.

Can anyone clarify.

Thanks

There is no Regulation requiring this.
Though as some have posted, it will be in the installation instructions for the shower.
Along with not using Re-wireable fuses, supplementary bonding and providing RCD protection.

 

[onions1066]

There is no Regulation requiring this.
Though as some have posted, it will be in the installation instructions for the shower.
Along with not using Re-wireable fuses, supplementary bonding and providing RCD protection.

Seriously are we on this again I thought we agreed you was wrong last time on this matter regarding manufactures instructions. Lol :banghead:

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Seriously are we on this again I thought we agreed you was wrong last time on this matter regarding manufactures instructions. Lol :banghead:

I think you'll find that you agreed with yourself, and ignored the facts.
It also appears that you are unable to read.
Perhaps you can look up and quote the particular Regulation which requires DP isolation for a shower?

 

[onions1066]

The facts written by the manufactures are the facts . Spin if you don't think we should have an rcd on a shower stand up and say it, sorry I'm on the professional side of the fence I think you are stood with the plumbers on the other side

 

[MDJ]

There is no reg relating to an actual shower needing Double pole isolation, however some may argue in a TT system it is so, that being said The regs are total pants at times however you interpet them, total pants hence my argument about them being the very Minimum standards.

 

[onions1066]

MDJ sorry I was just trying to spark a bit of life into the forum, very boring at the min. arty:

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MDJ just looked at your website looks good

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The facts written by the manufactures are the facts . Spin if you don't think we should have an rcd on a shower stand up and say it, sorry I'm on the professional side of the fence I think you are stood with the plumbers on the other side

Yes and some of the instructions still do not state that an RCD must be installed.
A fact that you overlook.
BS7671 requires that the circuit, not the shower be provided with RCD protection.
Another fact, is that by following the manufacturer's instructions, all shower and bath rooms would require supplementary bonding, all electric showers would require DP isolation and all fuse boxes would have to be replaced.

 

[rattlehead85]

At the end of the day it all boils down to the fact that if you argue black and white that a shower needs D.P isolation and the client calls in a wet behind the ears newbie with a nice shiny new green book and clearly demonstrates that no actual reg exists. Who is the one looking the pratt......

 

[onions1066]

Where do you get a shiny green one from?

 

[rattlehead85]

Have you never seen the current 17th edition regs book onions???

 

[onions1066]

I thought it was brown

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That's a joke by the way I'm colour blind