Certifying another Sparks work

[westward10]

It is not something I would be doing but where does it say in its entirety, BS7671 states to the best of my knowledge and belief. Is it NICEIC format.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hi,

I've been approached by a builder who has requested several of his jobs are certified. He has used another electrician to carry out the work who is unable to certify his own work.

I've suggested an EICR report as I'm unable to inspect cable runs in permitted zones along with other factors that I'm unable to verify, especially the quality of another's work.

He has informed me that as long as this is good enough for the council then that's fine.

Any suggestions on how best to approach has this, is there still a 3 signature certificate. Install, design and test?



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Do you mean 'notify', rather than certify? The electrician completing the work would have been able to certify (ie offer the correct certificate) the work carried out even if he wasn't registered with a scheme. If it was notifiable work that's a different matter, and like you and the others have said an EICR may be the way forward.

 

[Andy78]

It is not something I would be doing but where does it say in its entirety, BS7671 states to the best of my knowledge and belief. Is it NICEIC format.

You are correct that it is worded like that. How the NICEIC forms are worded I have no idea.

By entirety I meant that the signature covers all items on the inspection schedule and compliance in all areas with BS7671. I'm not aware of any items that are exempt from inspection, nor any reduced liability for items not inspected.

Having said that, with it being the NICEIC, they maybe have a box you can tick for "initial verification inspection carried out by builder"

 

[westward10]

He will be okay the NICEIC won't be running for the hills if anything hits the fan.:lol:

 

[richy3333]

He will be okay the NICEIC won't be running for the hills if anything hits the fan.:lol:

Perhaps that he couldn't see/confirm he just marked FI?!

 

[westward10]

Care to elaborate.

 

[TJ Anderson]

You are correct that it is worded like that. How the NICEIC forms are worded I have no idea.

By entirety I meant that the signature covers all items on the inspection schedule and compliance in all areas with BS7671. I'm not aware of any items that are exempt from inspection, nor any reduced liability for items not inspected.

I would write that on limitations section. Inspection and testing carried out after 2nd fix only. 1st fix inspection of installation including cable routes carried out by Joe Bloggs the builder and get his signature in inspection and testing box aswell as yours.

 

[nlbhoy]

I would write that on limitations section. Inspection and testing carried out after 2nd fix only. 1st fix inspection of installation including cable routes carried out by Joe Bloggs the builder and get his signature in inspection and testing box aswell as yours.

This is exactly what we did and were told to do by NIC to cover all the bases.

 

[westward10]

What Limitations section?

 

[Octopus]

What Limitations section?

Probably another fabrication by the NICEIC....

 

[Midwest]

Lets not be prudish about this, there must be loads of examples of this, companies going bust, electricians with illnesses etc etc. Stroma seem to have a business stream on 3rd party signature. S$$t happens, so someone's gotta pick up the mess, or does the world end cos someone's pulled some cables in, and someone else is going to have to sign it off. You can guarantee in house bashing the QS doesn't get round to looking at all of the installations.

Luckily for me I don't do EICR, and don't take on other peoples work. But someone has too. Strange though that NICEIC/Elecsa don't advocate 3rd party work, but offer a work around. Guess that's life.

 

[Nightmare1308]

NICEIC say Electrical Installation Condition Report should not be issued by one contractor as a substitute for an Electrical Installation
Certificate or a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate for work carried out by another contractor.

An Electrical Installation Condition Report does not provide a declaration by the designer or installer that the aspects of the work for which they were responsible comply with BS 7671. Also, cables that are concealed cannot be
inspected when construction is complete, as others have already mentioned.

If i was called upon to issue an Electrical Instaltation Condition Report for work designed and installed by others, it would be prudent of me to purpose and limitations of the report absolutely clear, in order to avoid unwittingly assuming responsibility for aspects of the work of which you have no
knowledge over

 

[Midwest]

But as I said s**t happens, say the installer passes away before issuing the EIC, everything is installed, tested, energised just missing the final aspect, the certificate. Does all the walls/ceilings need to be exposed to facilitate certification? Common sense would apply in these circumstances, so something must be appropriate in other circumstances.

 

[Nightmare1308]

But as I said s**t happens, say the installer passes away before issuing the EIC, everything is installed, tested, energised just missing the final aspect, the certificate. Does all the walls/ceilings need to be exposed to facilitate certification? Common sense would apply in these circumstances, so something must be appropriate in other circumstances.

My mistake didn't see last comment.
That very true not all QS/companies do there job as they should and inspect first fix.
The only way round it then is Section D then get the client to sign everything u can't then inspect or see?
After all an EICR reports are done even if u don't have previous certificates?

 

[mydigitalhome]

Suggest before checking other people's work that your insurance covers it. You will be surprised to note just how many policies only cover testing your own work. Always check to be safe.

 

[darren balchin]

Hi,

I've been approached by a builder who has requested several of his jobs are certified. He has used another electrician to carry out the work who is unable to certify his own work.

I've suggested an EICR report as I'm unable to inspect cable runs in permitted zones along with other factors that I'm unable to verify, especially the quality of another's work.

He has informed me that as long as this is good enough for the council then that's fine.

Any suggestions on how best to approach has this, is there still a 3 signature certificate. Install, design and test?



Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk[

Ive had to do this myself when people have had to sell there house and in some instances its been for extensions. I clearly write on the certs that its for testing only and installation was carried out by others , you need to be very thorough, as you know you can tell a good install in know time. Lots of company's have a different guy who signs off the work, if you know the installer also put there details down on the cert.

 

[unconditional]

I had the same problem few weeks back.

I phoned the NIC and they gave me 2 option:

1. Complete the 3 part EIC and sign only the testing part, and have the other person/s
responsible for design and install sign the other parts.

2. Ask building control if they'll accept an EICR.

In the end I carried out the EIC and had other spark sign the sections he was responsible for.

How does the "other spark" comply with responsibilities under part P for his design and install work, as he's obviously not registered? Doesnt that make the certificate largely worthless?

Don't like sorting out other's rubbish but I offer an EICR same as I would to anyone wanting an assessment on a wiring installation with an explanation they may have to deal with BC/conveyancer issues as and when. As you can just buy indemnity insurance for a few bob it kind of makes a mockery of it all really

 

[Davisonp]

There is another thread “Is it right?? - Police officer still working for police and doing electrical and plumbing work - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/is-it-right-police-officer-still-working-for-police-and-doing-electrical-and-plumbing-work.114359/page-2#post-1217376” in which the question was asked “I thought with 3rd party certification the competent person had to be notified prior to the work being started?” I have attached an IET publication (and an extract below) that defines what is allowed and required to certify another’s work and you do need to be notified in advance and be part of the scheme.

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Third party certification schemes for domestic electrical work in England
Chief Engineer Geoff Cronshaw provides clarity on the new Part P third party certification schemes introduced in April this year, and answers some frequently asked questions.
New Part P third party certification schemes for electrical installation work in dwellings were introduced in England on 6th April this year.
A person registered with one of the schemes will be able to check domestic electrical work undertaken by installers who are not registered with a Part P competent person self certification scheme (typically DIY work) and certify that the work is compliant with the Building Regulations. Before 6th April, only building control bodies (usually local authorities) could certify work by non-registered installers.

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I have been in this situation before the rules changed when the previous electrician was sacked three quarter of the way through the second fix, and the issue of certification was discussed with building control to confirm in this case that they would accept an EICR under the circumstances.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

3 part EICs are usually used on larger projects, though there is nothing prohibiting them from being used on small projects.
They are usually used where there are a number of installers and just a few testers.
It may even be the case that the persons signing the various parts of the EIC, have never visited the site they are signing for.

As far as I am aware it is the person signing for construction who is responsible for ensuring compliance with BS7671 in respect of construction methods (permitted routes, IP ratings, accessibility, etc).
The tester would be responsible for conducting tests and confirming (where practicable) that construction methods comply.
I have in the past commented on the fact that although supplying the first socket in a circuit with SWA cable complies, using flexible conduit and singles to supply the rest of the sockets on the circuit, doesn't as the cables are less than 50mm deep and are not run in prescribed routes.
In that instance, someone else signed off the testing.

 

[MG201]

The CIOB New code of Quality actually recommends 3rd party inspection ,verification and certification
Obvythis is carried out at all stages of the works
The reasoning is that no company will ever give a new installation cert that says unsatisfactory . We can’t rely on site managers to know everything about electical systems and as we all know there are plenty of dodgy installations out there.
As long as the works are inspected at 1st 2nd and final fix I recon it would be positive. This is not only for electrics but all trades part of the new code they have introduced