Possibly just me but i just get really insulted

[chris day]

Hello guys

I have started getting emails from MEN at the age of 30 wanting to be my apprentice, the whole thing is insulting.
im sorry your job in finance did not work out and you think you can be a fully qualified spark in 1 year. it took me 5 years of graft to become a fully served spark in 2011 man and boy.

Is this a new phenomenon?

 

[Devonchris]

I can understand your concern.
If there is a problem on site which usually means the apprentice is blamed, somebody may look at you both and then clip you round the ear.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I have an apprentice starting in February...He's actually older than me Hes in insurance ATM and the company he works for let's every employee have a 6 month sabbatical once throughout their employment. He's paying for his own college and if it doesn't work out then he still has his job to walk back into. I have two young apprentices who are decent but i went through a few finding them...most wasn't interested, didn't have what it takes, lazy, didn't want to do any over time etc. I'm looking forward to taking on an apprentice who has responsibilities like a morgage and kids as they will be keen to learn so the money goes up quicker and in every day as they have bills to pay. I think it means a lot If someone's willing to pay for their own training, use their savings to live whilst they're on a low wage and go down the correct route of doing an apprenticeship.

 

[Octopus]

^^ its such a shame that youngsters who get offered a chance to get an apprenticeship, they chuck it away!

 

[Leesparkykent]

^^ its such a shame that youngsters who get offered a chance to get an apprenticeship, they chuck it away!

I agree mate...I'm not tarring them all with the same brush but they really are few and far between.

 

[chris day]

I think it means a lot If someone's willing to pay for their own training, use their savings to live whilst they're on a low wage and go down the correct route of doing an apprenticeship.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, but in a traditional sense it takes a few year to become competent how are you supposed to pay that person a salary that reflects this skill set that is mutually beneficial.
an apprentice you can pay £60 a day how will that person with children survive unless you pay them much more than they are worth?

 

[andyb]

Hello guys

I have started getting emails from MEN at the age of 30 wanting to be my apprentice, the whole thing is insulting.
im sorry your job in finance did not work out and you think you can be a fully qualified spark in 1 year. it took me 5 years of graft to become a fully served spark in 2011 man and boy.

Is this a new phenomenon?

Sorry Chris I'm not sure what your problem is.
Someone asks you if you are taking on apprentices and you're insulted by this?
Did the person say he expected it to take 1 year? if so you just need to explain the reality of the situation to him.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I think it means a lot If someone's willing to pay for their own training, use their savings to live whilst they're on a low wage and go down the correct route of doing an apprenticeship.

He's starting on £50 a day....He has savings to supplement the low wage. His money will reflect his development after a year he could be on 80 a day, 2nd year 100 a day, 3rd year £120 day.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Another thing....How do you know their personal circumstances? For all you know they could have a Mrs who earns enough to support the both of them.

 

[static zap]

.....Is this a new phenomenon?

A bit like Wikipedia ,
An internet of ... unproven ideas .

- change is crumbling many a firm inflexible foundation .
( I have some old fashioned ways that are no longer PC)

( Boy hood ambitions of being a football star ... Later realise .. stats )

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd go as far as to say that someone like the chap Lee is taking on would generally be a lot less hassle than your average 16-18 year old nowadays,and potentially a very good future asset.
I'm lucky that my son has a nice attitude, manners and is keen to learn, customers always say what a nice lad he is too , increasingly rare in that age group from what I see these days.

 

[7029 dave]

I would have agreed with the op a few months ago, but I can't be two faced now, taking my gas safe exams next week at the age of 53. Never too old, my company must think I am worth it.? lol

 

[Dave OCD]

Same age as me Dave, probably at our peak mate. Well apart from the sore knees,shoulders,neck etc.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I would have agreed with the op a few months ago, but I can't be two faced now, taking my gas safe exams next week at the age of 53. Never too old, my company must think I am worth it.? lol

so that's why you haven't been on here much? Been wondering where you were....good luck with your exams Dave. Do you have the Viper gas books?

 

[7029 dave]

so that's why you haven't been on here much? Been wondering where you were....good luck with your exams Dave. Do you have the Viper gas books?

Yes Lee that is why, bit intense for me and TBH finding it not that easy. Got the niceic igem books, how are you getting on with it.? Thanx

 

[Leesparkykent]

Yes Lee that is why, bit intense for me and TBH finding it not that easy. Got the niceic igem books, how are you getting on with it.? Thanx

I'm sure you'll be fine mate. I haven't touched it in ages as been so busy with work....Doesn't look like it will let up any time soon either as seem to be winning everything coming my way.

 

[chris day]

Sorry Chris I'm not sure what your problem is.
Someone asks you if you are taking on apprentices and you're insulted by this?
Did the person say he expected it to take 1 year? if so you just need to explain the reality of the situation to him.

I suppose without looking into their personal circumstances i feel a bit insulted because they view a trade as dirty seconds, and they are going on courses with private companies which have all been turned into tick boxes in exams which cheapens the trade.
I think i am being a bit precious about the whole thing upon reflection but just wanted opinions i suppose to see how irrational or not i am being

 

[andyb]

My problem is that these people go on a course that gets them qualified in a few months

That's not an apprenticeship though. Do you mean you've had 5WWs asking to be employed as an electrician?

 

[chris day]

That's not an apprenticeship though. Do you mean you've had 5WWs asking to be employed as an electrician?

I just keep being asked by people who are doing intensive 5 month courses

 

[DavidSpark]

I'm not sure why you'd take insult from it. These people are trying to make a career change and are doing it out their own pockets. It might not be the most ideal way of doing it but there is really no other way. The positive from that is at least they are trying to gain practical experience by working with and being mentored by someone who has been in the game for many years, as opposed to doing the 5 month course and then getting out on the streets as an "electrician".

 

[DPG]

Hello guys

I have started getting emails from MEN at the age of 30 wanting to be my apprentice, the whole thing is insulting.
im sorry your job in finance did not work out and you think you can be a fully qualified spark in 1 year. it took me 5 years of graft to become a fully served spark in 2011 man and boy.QUOTE]

I'm glad I'm not your apprentice - you seem to have a bit of an attitude problem judging by your post. Mind you, I'm over 40 so you'd be VERY insulted by me I expect.

 

[FatAlan]

The problem with the Electrical Trainee is that a lot of those guys may not have a lot of choice or may even have been conned into doing them with false expectations. You just have to see the posts on here.
It’s extremely patronising and insulting. This is a complex trade that like most careers requires the accumulation of experience. I get the impression that the main issue is that a lot of experienced time served sparks are feeling threatened by the popularity of their trade and those that are falling over themselves to get experience. Take a look at yourselves and your business and decide where you want to be. One of these budding old apprentices might for instance have a diary full of contacts and future business. I’d be taking advantage if there are guys out there willing to work for nothing. Yes, there’ll be the odd numpty but I’ve come across plenty of qualified idiots who I won’t use again. Supply and demand! Natural market forces apply whether you like it or not. I’d rather employ an approved Electrical Trainee who knew the regs and did the job correctly than a cynical old JIB registered has been who took the p***

 

[simon bartlett]

God forbid someone wanting to change careers. 30 years old ? why doesn't he just give up and find a hole to die in eh?

 

[simon bartlett]

Adults new to the trade wanting to join a cps scheme are required to complete a portfolio which typically requires 12 -24 months working for a skilled electrician. I see no issue with it if people are aware of their limitations. There are good experiences electricians and crappy experienced electricians .

 

[Christo]

Hello guys

I have started getting emails from MEN at the age of 30 wanting to be my apprentice, the whole thing is insulting.
im sorry your job in finance did not work out and you think you can be a fully qualified spark in 1 year. it took me 5 years of graft to become a fully served spark in 2011 man and boy.

Is this a new phenomenon?

Get over yourself

 

[TeeCee]

Making statements like the OP - and I understand they have their reasons - is nevertheless somewhat ignorant of certain realities and situations.

I'd say there are / will be a number of people (not just men) in their 30's (and older) going down this road. More power to them, I say.

When these people were children and teenagers, the educational system had been politically skewed towards churning out service industry fodder. The spotlight was very much moved away from traditional occupations, to the detriment of all concerned. This generated a swathes young people being prepared for an economy that did not eventually deliver as politically expected, certainly post-2008.

Although originally unveiled in 1993, The 'Modern Apprenticeship' was not effectively introduced until 1995-96, with steady growth from that point on. So, someone leaving school at that point was channelled into either A Levels or perhaps a BTEC / GNVQ. So these thirty-somethings probably never got an adequate opportunity to explore more traditional crafts - only garnering a flavour later in life. I'm not saying cry for them, but there's no need to look disdainfully.

But enough of the history lessons. I have a slight suspicion that the OP might have been pretendng to live under a bridge. If so, I'm sure they're quite pleased.

 

[sparksburnout]

It's not always the young persons fault. They have had it drilled into them by Tony Bliar and Co. that the only thing worth doing is to go to University and get a useless degree in an xxxxxology. Trades are regarded by a lot as some sort of poor alternative.

 

[Pastyspark]

From my experience a mature apprentice is a lot more enthusiastic to learn. Unfortunately you have to pay them more per hour, but once they've got enough experience to work on their own you can book them out at a higher rate.
Ive had builders moan about leaving younger apprentices in site compared to older lads even with the same experience.
I do agree that the Electrical Trainee shouldn't get full rate from qualifying. They need the experience as well as the qualifications to be sparks.

 

[sparksburnout]

Adults new to the trade wanting to join a cps scheme are required to complete a portfolio which typically requires 12 -24 months working for a skilled electrician. I see no issue with it if people are aware of their limitations. There are good experiences electricians and crappy experienced electricians .

Just out of interest Simon have the rules changed recently then? I thought they only checked qualifications and then did an assessment.

 

[telectrix]

and make sure that your cheque clears.

 

[Rpa07]

Just out of interest Simon have the rules changed recently then? I thought they only checked qualifications and then did an assessment.

Those two go hand in hand in my opinion. An assessor is looking for experience as well as the quals, not just 1 out of 2. Enough on the forum have let us know how thorough the Stroma assessments are, they would not let inexperienced onto the scheme, qualifications recent or old, cheque clearing or not, of that I am sure (pretty sure!)

 

[Edtwozeronine]

I'm on this rocky road myself, 3rd year of a city and guilds and started with the notification I'd be qualified after 3 years. After reading through the disclaimer though I found I will only be qualified as an improver/electricians mate.

I went the useless degree route expecting that people would at least see it on my CV impressed that I wasn't a drop-out. No such luck, it's been minimum wage -------- all the way to 39 years of age.

But here's the thing, I still have at least 40 years on the planet until I curl up and die. So how about a bit more positivity for us wannabe electricians!

Not everybody finds their path at 16 you know, it drives me bonkers that in this world people who are just trying to find their way have so many roadblocks put in front of them. In this case I'd say ageism and for the 1 young lady on our course probably sexism.

At least I did enough research to not end up on a 5 week wonder course eh?

 

[sparksburnout]

Those two go hand in hand in my opinion. An assessor is looking for experience as well as the quals, not just 1 out of 2. Enough on the forum have let us know how thorough the Stroma assessments are, they would not let inexperienced onto the scheme, qualifications recent or old, cheque clearing or not, of that I am sure (pretty sure!)

One of my Stroma assessors was a really nice, down to earth Guy (Gary Lane). He said that they do fail quite a few, more than you would think.

 

[sparksburnout]

I'm on this rocky road myself, 3rd year of a city and guilds and started with the notification I'd be qualified after 3 years. After reading through the disclaimer though I found I will only be qualified as an improver/electricians mate.

I went the useless degree route expecting that people would at least see it on my CV impressed that I wasn't a drop-out. No such luck, it's been minimum wage ******** all the way to 39 years of age.

But here's the thing, I still have at least 40 years on the planet until I curl up and die. So how about a bit more positivity for us wannabe electricians!

Not everybody finds their path at 16 you know, it drives me bonkers that in this world people who are just trying to find their way have so many roadblocks put in front of them. In this case I'd say ageism and for the 1 young lady on our course probably sexism.

At least I did enough research to not end up on a 5 week wonder course eh?

I don't think most people would criticise you at all, it is the short course people, and the companies supplying the courses, that get the stick, and rightly so. With your attitude, I am sure you will find a person or company to take you on, once you have done your bit, and let you gain experience. Experience is the key to all this, something which is obviously seriously lacking in a lot of cases. You only have to look at some of the recent posts to see that.

 

[richard12]

The only problem that I have with ''older'' apprentices in my experience is that they are very keen to learn, ask lots of questions about marketing and where the best place is to advertise, pricing etc. You then notice in the local paper them advertising in direct competition with you.

 

[UNG]

This is nothing new for those of us who were around in the 80's the government Skillcentres offered 6 month courses it produced some good lads and some who got the qualification but were useless.
The biggest problem I had was some of the Skillcentre lads I employed were some years older than me and took the line they knew more than I did when it came to fault finding and how to solve installation problems.
We generally gave them 3 - 6 months probation to prove themselves some were willing to learn others just turned up for the money and only went to the Skillcentre to avoid losing their dole money
The big problem is that none of these quick courses really address the skill shortage in industry they are all purely aimed at the saturated domestic single phase market

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Adults new to the trade wanting to join a cps scheme are required to complete a portfolio which typically requires 12 -24 months working for a skilled electrician. I see no issue with it if people are aware of their limitations. There are good experiences electricians and crappy experienced electricians .

Portfolio? you just have to have your 17th edition and do a notifiable type job in your own home such as change your CU to join elecsa... you dont need 2394/2395 etc as they get you to sit a multi choice online test instead with the books next to you... i know a ex squaddie in Taunton who has done just that so he can sign off on his own projects as him and his old man are property developers. The only electrical courses he has is the Electrical Trainee stuff with basic testing and 17th and prior to that he was a mechanic in the army. I was surprised just how easy it was to join the scheme.

 

[sparksburnout]

Portfolio? you just have to have your 17th edition and do a notifiable type job in your own home such as change your CU to join elecsa... you dont need 2394/2395 etc as they get you to sit a multi choice online test instead with the books next to you... i know a ex squaddie in Taunton who has done just that so he can sign off on his own projects as him and his old man are property developers. The only electrical courses he has is the Electrical Trainee stuff with basic testing and 17th and prior to that he was a mechanic in the army. I was surprised just how easy it was to join the scheme.

I think Stroma must be a bit more discerning. From the initial assessment I had I can't see anyone who has only been on a 5 week course getting in. Don't they insist on I&T quals now?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I think Stroma must be a bit more discerning. From the initial assessment I had I can't see anyone who has only been on a 5 week course getting in. Don't they insist on I&T quals now?

It seems Stroma are much stricter on who they let in. All my mate had was 2392 no 94/95 so guess some of the schemes are quite lax about it and must judge you on what you show on the day and not being a bit backwards when having a conversation with the assessor. We all know that its not about certificates though i have come across some very skilled labourers and mates who are more competent than some jib graded sparks. it comes down to real intelligence in that they can apply themselves and problem solve things not just memorise things for exams. I have worked with some guys who have done fast track courses and it does seem popular for ex forces guys as the mod pay for it, with a mix of their forces trade skills and this they seem quite on the ball, very methodical and accept their limitations.. on the other hand i have come across joe bloggs the Electrical Trainee who must have decided when down the pub one night he will be an electrician. i wouldnt trust them to change a bulb.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

ok interesting debate here ... I am time served and mostly been away from the trade fulltime for years. I kept my toes in the water and helped others that are fulltime sparks during the time away. ie helping out now and again.
I 've recently done the 17 th edition, pat testing and ins and testing course recently ...mostly to get back up to speed .
These courses attracted a lot of kitchen fitters, plumbers etc... people trying to upskill and make a few extra quid .
The only ones that passed the city and guilds were sparks
the pass mark on most of these courses is now 80%.
I think they maybe have realised a lot of people were doing short courses and then being let loose into a technical area .
the tutors said they (city and guilds)had raised the pass mark recently due to many incidents happening involving 'qualified' people
maybe the quick courses have been realised as not adequate