Why Don't The Moderators Take More Action?

[richy3333]

Hi Marvo.
I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't having a go at you in my last post.

What I dont understand (as a moderator on another forum) is that Dan posted a sticky back in Feb 2011 which was a refresher of an earlier post saying this:

It's come to our attention recently that a couple of different types of forum members (mainly "time served" v "newbies" - but then "members" v "moderators" as a result) are forgetting that you're all fellow tradespeople.

What we don't accept on this forum:-
- Cursing newbies
- Cursing time-served
- Cursing moderators
- Cursing pretty much anybody
We have a strict "be nice" policy and if you're not being nice you're not welcome on our forum.

I understand that the construction industry is under quite a bit of pressure but we're all in the same boat and insulting other people won't fix the industry problem.

We're going to monitor this closely now, and we will ban people who keep insulting others, you've all been reminded of the rules now. No more chances.

HOW TO REPORT A POST THAT OFFENDS YOU
Click the report post icon - and never ever respond to it yourself - let the moderators deal with the offensive remark.

In view of this why dont the moderators of this forum take more action against the offenders (we all know who they are)? They are clearly breaching forum rules. Is it a commercial situation - post counting Surely it would be better to ban a few offenders and see a short slump in threads/posts until members start coming back and popping their heads above the parapets? I can only go back to my earlier comment that the reason the forums like what it is and certain people are so rude and obnoxious is because the forum owner and the forum moderators allow it to be like this. Dont moderators have the authority to ban people? I know I do where I moderate. Can't moderators delete these unhelpful, rude, bullying, crass posts? And on that note I don't understand why you moved certain posts and started another thread - it just fuels the whiners to carry on... whinging?!

Someone posted a question that was along the lines of do we want a few quality posts a day or lots of useless comments every day. I know which I would prefer. I know the comparison isn't directly comparable but some members on here would be well directed over to the Festool Owners Group. Their rules are strict about what can be posted. No un-constructive criticism (so you dont see thousands of comments about Electrical Trainee joiners/carpenters), no politics, no religion. Bang on like some do on here and you're soon moderated - banned or have your posts deleted. What you end up with is some quality information about a specific subject. If however its all about post counts and revenue then let the mad people take over the asylum!

Can someone please explain why there is a lack of moderation on this site?

 

[GB.Kayak]

Re: Christmas Spirit?

Hi Marvo.
I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't having a go at you in my last post.

What I dont understand (as a moderator on another forum) is that Dan posted a sticky back in Feb 2011 which was a refresher of an earlier post saying this:

It's come to our attention recently that a couple of different types of forum members (mainly "time served" v "newbies" - but then "members" v "moderators" as a result) are forgetting that you're all fellow tradespeople.

What we don't accept on this forum:-
- Cursing newbies
- Cursing time-served
- Cursing moderators
- Cursing pretty much anybody
We have a strict "be nice" policy and if you're not being nice you're not welcome on our forum.

I understand that the construction industry is under quite a bit of pressure but we're all in the same boat and insulting other people won't fix the industry problem.

We're going to monitor this closely now, and we will ban people who keep insulting others, you've all been reminded of the rules now. No more chances.

HOW TO REPORT A POST THAT OFFENDS YOU
Click the report post icon - and never ever respond to it yourself - let the moderators deal with the offensive remark.

In view of this why dont the moderators of this forum take more action against the offenders (we all know who they are)? They are clearly breaching forum rules. Is it a commercial situation - post counting Surely it would be better to ban a few offenders and see a short slump in threads/posts until members start coming back and popping their heads above the parapets? I can only go back to my earlier comment that the reason the forums like what it is and certain people are so rude and obnoxious is because the forum owner and the forum moderators allow it to be like this. Dont moderators have the authority to ban people? I know I do where I moderate. Can't moderators delete these unhelpful, rude, bullying, crass posts? And on that note I don't understand why you moved certain posts and started another thread - it just fuels the whiners to carry on... whinging?!

Someone posted a question that was along the lines of do we want a few quality posts a day or lots of useless comments every day. I know which I would prefer. I know the comparison isn't directly comparable but some members on here would be well directed over to the Festool Owners Group. Their rules are strict about what can be posted. No un-constructive criticism (so you dont see thousands of comments about Electrical Trainee joiners/carpenters), no politics, no religion. Bang on like some do on here and you're soon moderated - banned or have your posts deleted. What you end up with is some quality information about a specific subject. If however its all about post counts and revenue then let the mad people take over the asylum!

Can someone please explain why there is a lack of moderation on this site?

Good points and well made. That said, the risk factors, safety and liability issues involved in this particular subject matter bring a whole host of natural additional concerns particularly to those more experienced members who may have experienced or seen the life and death impact of 'botched jobs'.

 

[Marvo]

Re: Christmas Spirit?

Hi Richy.

I was borderline whether to relocate your post as well but I've left it where it is for now at least. The majority of your post is about the staff structure and philosophy of the forum so if this becomes the focus of the discussion on this thread I'll probably make it into a thread of its own because whilst I believe it warrants discussion I'm making a concerted effort to keep this particular thread for the purpose of discussing the abrasive behaviour itself and not letting it deviate even slightly until I get a clearer understanding about it from some of the ringleaders without the 'smoke and mirrors' mentioned above.

Okay, before I go any further I'm going to make it clear that whilst I don't have a problem discussing these issues, most of what I say in reply here is my own personal opinion and my own personal take on things and much of my reply will be feelings and opinions, not necessarily hard fact. Other staff may, or almost certainly will disagree with certain aspects and have their own take on some things so please bear that in mind.

The post by Dan you've referred to was something of a knee-jerk reaction to get the forum back to a place where anyone in the electrical trade could post without fear of reprisal, belittling or obnoxious comments. Clearly at that time it had gotten out of hand and quite rightly he addressed it as he saw fit. Some of the remedial measures involved giving out a handful of infractions and bans to some of the worst offenders plus encouraging members to report abrasive behaviour plus giving staff carte blanch to keep hammering at it until it stopped. The result after much complaining, political manoeuvring and several members leaving was that the poor behaviour subsided and over a period of a few weeks or months things settled back into a form of normality.

Only two problems remained at that time, firstly the underlying issues of what was making people feel they had the God given right to be obnoxious wasn't addressed and secondly people are people and over time, little by little they slipped back into the old ways.....and here we are again today with threads like this one.

The staff members on this forum have all the power in the world, we can ban whoever we see fit whenever we see fit for as long as we see fit. The way we work is mostly by consensus and discussion in basically a democracy which I've always liked. The board is pretty damn busy sometimes and when staff are on the spot in the middle of things it's easy to over-react or misinterpret who's at fault and sometimes it's easy not to see the bigger picture so consensus works well in that respect to ensure level and fair moderation and disciplinary actions. One of the problems with consensus though is it can also be slow and different staff obviously will sometimes have different opinions on different issues.

The problem with abrasive posting behaviour is that it's very difficult to draw an absolute line as to what is and what isn't acceptable on a post by post basis. Add to this it's not just one person, it's numerous so you get a newcomer posting a thread and out of the first half dozen replies not one of them taken on it's own would warrant removal or moderation but the combination of them together efficiently serve to isolate the guy to the point where he feels insulted and belittled and put him in a place he feels he must defend himself or simply he walks away with some choice words. So in this situation you really have 3 options, you can ban the lot of them on the basis they acted as a group or a gang, you can pick the ones that stand out as being the worst offenders and ban them although taken in isolation their post wouldn't have warranted a ban or finally you close the thread and leave a remark for people to back off the abrasive comments. It's something of a Hobsons choice and usually the last option is the one used.

Looking on the bright side it’s my new pet project and I’m starting small with trying to get preferably one or several of the ring leaders to develop sufficient spine to explain nothing more than why it’s acceptable behaviour without the smoke and mirrors answers such as ‘I’m defending the trade’ or ‘I’m sick of Electrical Trainee’s’ or 'I'm a professional'. So far little honesty has been forthcoming but I’m patient and I know introspection takes time and isn’t always a pleasant exercise so I wait in hope.

As for whether it's better to have fewer quality electrical posts etc it’s a tricky one and could easily be a separate topic of discussion on its own. This forum has always been relaxed and community based. We have sub forums for politics, photography and general chit chat etc so it’s never tried to be or masqueraded as a technical electrical forum with a minimum electrical standard requirement. It has a very diverse range of members and has always welcomed discussions on a diverse range of topics. The owner of the forum has basically let the members decide what sub forums are created and he leaves the staff to the day to day operations. There’s some of the guys who think he’s running the forum with only profit in mind so the answer would be the more posts the better, but I honestly don’t see it, if that was the case the advertising would be compulsory, non-public forums that didn’t drive traffic wouldn't exist like the trainee forum or the 3K forum etc. I know I’m starting to ramble which is indicating to me at least that I don’t have the answers to your questions so I can only apologise and leave it there for now plus I've got presents to put under the tree so I'll probably revisit this when I've had time to think about it and more time to do it justice with a more considered reply instead of a chaotic rambling..

 

[Marvo]

Re: Christmas Spirit?

So in this situation you really have 3 options, you can ban the lot of them on the basis they acted as a group or a gang, you can pick the ones that stand out as being the worst offenders and ban them although taken in isolation their post wouldn't have warranted a ban or finally you close the thread and leave a remark for people to back off the abrasive comments. It's something of a Hobsons choice and usually the last option is the one used.

Okay, the tree is primed and I have a few minutes before I go for a swim and off to bed so I'll start expanding on the above post.

What brought this whole issue to the forefront for me wasn't particularly that the obnoxious behaviour was getting worse, although with hindsight it undoubtedly was creeping in the wrong direction, what started this was that I had basically closed a couple of threads where newcomers were getting the usual treatment and left a half tongue in cheek image pointing to lack of Christmas spirit and lack of seasonal goodwill which was already something of a cop out in moderating terms. This thread was then started in reaction stating (hang on I'll go back and copy it)

Christmas Spirit comes out of a bottle.
Marvo, I don’t know how you have the gall to put this up.

The sheer irony of getting slated for having the absolute 'gall' to even humorously suggest the obnoxious behaviour shouldn't continue with impunity was the tipping point for me.

The rest is history.

 

[Marvo]

I've made this thread to accommodate a discussion that started in another thread and warranted being a standalone topic. The thread title was my doing and if Richy who initiated the topic has a better title in mind I'll change it accordingly.

 

[Engineer54]

What a load of crap is being posted here!!

Since when has anyone condoned the use of abusive or bullying content, none that i have so far seen. Those that do go down that route have always been banned here, it's nothing new, it's always been so ever since i joined this forum.

Having a forum moderated to the extent the OP suggests, will have an ultimate effect of killing an existing trade based forum stone dead in a very short space of time. Who the hell wants to contribute to a sterile forum where your posts are more liable than not to be hacked about, or deleted because you may have worded it in a fashion that may or may not be to someone's liking...

As i say, abusive or bullying content is not the issue here everyone knows it's consequences, that's the smokescreen and mirrors thing here. The issue as far as i'm concerned at least, is closing threads and deleting posts without good reason on the premise that it MAY descend into a slanging match or that the thread is based on a long standing or frequently raised topic!! Such threads and posts don't call for any moderation until such time forum infractions have or are being made.

There's nothing wrong with heated discussions and debates either, so long as things don't get personally abusive. Were all adults here and most of us have been around the block a good few times. It's a shame but life's a bitch and then you die!! We don't need or want to be treated as naughty school children especially to a point where we can't speak as we find....

 

[Guest77]

Hi Marvo.
I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't having a go at you in my last post.

What I dont understand (as a moderator on another forum) is that Dan posted a sticky back in Feb 2011 which was a refresher of an earlier post saying this:

It's come to our attention recently that a couple of different types of forum members (mainly "time served" v "newbies" - but then "members" v "moderators" as a result) are forgetting that you're all fellow tradespeople.

What we don't accept on this forum:-
- Cursing newbies
- Cursing time-served
- Cursing moderators
- Cursing pretty much anybody
We have a strict "be nice" policy and if you're not being nice you're not welcome on our forum.

I understand that the construction industry is under quite a bit of pressure but we're all in the same boat and insulting other people won't fix the industry problem.

We're going to monitor this closely now, and we will ban people who keep insulting others, you've all been reminded of the rules now. No more chances.

HOW TO REPORT A POST THAT OFFENDS YOU
Click the report post icon - and never ever respond to it yourself - let the moderators deal with the offensive remark.

In view of this why dont the moderators of this forum take more action against the offenders (we all know who they are)? They are clearly breaching forum rules. Is it a commercial situation - post counting Surely it would be better to ban a few offenders and see a short slump in threads/posts until members start coming back and popping their heads above the parapets? I can only go back to my earlier comment that the reason the forums like what it is and certain people are so rude and obnoxious is because the forum owner and the forum moderators allow it to be like this. Dont moderators have the authority to ban people? I know I do where I moderate. Can't moderators delete these unhelpful, rude, bullying, crass posts? And on that note I don't understand why you moved certain posts and started another thread - it just fuels the whiners to carry on... whinging?!

Someone posted a question that was along the lines of do we want a few quality posts a day or lots of useless comments every day. I know which I would prefer. I know the comparison isn't directly comparable but some members on here would be well directed over to the Festool Owners Group. Their rules are strict about what can be posted. No un-constructive criticism (so you dont see thousands of comments about Electrical Trainee joiners/carpenters), no politics, no religion. Bang on like some do on here and you're soon moderated - banned or have your posts deleted. What you end up with is some quality information about a specific subject. If however its all about post counts and revenue then let the mad people take over the asylum!

Can someone please explain why there is a lack of moderation on this site?

Your an Arms member, why don't you start a thread up in the Arms naming these members so we can all see if you are correct, this comment alone is enough to start WW3 here richy.

 

[telectrix]

Hi Marvo.
I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't having a go at you in my last post.

What I dont understand (as a moderator on another forum) is that Dan posted a sticky back in Feb 2011 which was a refresher of an earlier post saying this:

It's come to our attention recently that a couple of different types of forum members (mainly "time served" v "newbies" - but then "members" v "moderators" as a result) are forgetting that you're all fellow tradespeople.

What we don't accept on this forum:-
- Cursing newbies
- Cursing time-served
- Cursing moderators
- Cursing pretty much anybody
We have a strict "be nice" policy and if you're not being nice you're not welcome on our forum.

I understand that the construction industry is under quite a bit of pressure but we're all in the same boat and insulting other people won't fix the industry problem.

We're going to monitor this closely now, and we will ban people who keep insulting others, you've all been reminded of the rules now. No more chances.

HOW TO REPORT A POST THAT OFFENDS YOU
Click the report post icon - and never ever respond to it yourself - let the moderators deal with the offensive remark.

In view of this why dont the moderators of this forum take more action against the offenders (we all know who they are)? They are clearly breaching forum rules. Is it a commercial situation - post counting Surely it would be better to ban a few offenders and see a short slump in threads/posts until members start coming back and popping their heads above the parapets? I can only go back to my earlier comment that the reason the forums like what it is and certain people are so rude and obnoxious is because the forum owner and the forum moderators allow it to be like this. Dont moderators have the authority to ban people? I know I do where I moderate. Can't moderators delete these unhelpful, rude, bullying, crass posts? And on that note I don't understand why you moved certain posts and started another thread - it just fuels the whiners to carry on... whinging?!

Someone posted a question that was along the lines of do we want a few quality posts a day or lots of useless comments every day. I know which I would prefer. I know the comparison isn't directly comparable but some members on here would be well directed over to the Festool Owners Group. Their rules are strict about what can be posted. No un-constructive criticism (so you dont see thousands of comments about Electrical Trainee joiners/carpenters), no politics, no religion. Bang on like some do on here and you're soon moderated - banned or have your posts deleted. What you end up with is some quality information about a specific subject. If however its all about post counts and revenue then let the mad people take over the asylum!

Can someone please explain why there is a lack of moderation on this site?

mine eyes seeit, but my arse can't be brained.

 

[Plonker 3]

Your an Arms member, why don't you start a thread up in the Arms naming these members so we can all see if you are correct, this comment alone is enough to start WW3 here richy.

Why in the arms? Why not on here with quoted posts to prove his point? It happened to me several days ago someone accusing me of being a abuser, i asked for quotes either on the thead or via PM, neither if which happeneed.

I finnaly ended up reporting the said post, which Marvo did edit as it was said without substance, so if people do find things offensive this goes to show the report post button does work.

 

[Marvo]

If people make accusations against a specific member they'll be tolerated if they're appropriately placed and backed up with some evidence. Off-hand or flippant accusations will be moderated accordingly if they're brought to my attention.

 

[Guest77]

Why in the arms? Why not on here with quoted posts to prove his point? It happened to me several days ago someone accusing me of being a abuser, i asked for quotes either on the thead or via PM, neither if which happeneed.

I finnaly ended up reporting the said post, which Marvo did edit as it was said without substance, so if people do find things offensive this goes to show the report post button does work.

Morning Mate, Merry Christmas, well I suggested the arms because the Mods would remove a post outside a hidden forum with members names on it, in the 3000 or the arms it would probably be allowed to run a bit so we could see what richy is talking about, the 3000 better, but saying that I am not sure if he has access, I haven't checked his post count.

 

[Guest77]

Talking of action, this thread is very worrying, I hope no members here give any advice other than contact an Electrician, very worrying

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/diy-electrical-advice/98133-extension.html

 

[telectrix]

Talking of action, this thread is very worrying, I hope no members here give any advice other than contact an Electrician, very worrying

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/diy-electrical-advice/98133-extension.html

se my post #2 in that thread.

 

[andyelectric]

Why in the arms? Why not on here with quoted posts to prove his point? It happened to me several days ago someone accusing me of being a abuser, i asked for quotes either on the thead or via PM, neither if which happeneed.

I finnaly ended up reporting the said post, which Marvo did edit as it was said without substance, so if people do find things offensive this goes to show the report post button does work.

I replied pretty much straight away that you use "Are you an Electrician?" not to ask the question, but pretty much as a stock rhetorical pistake , and that as such, if I was answered to in such a manner I would consider it an abusive response. If you were to reply to aposter in a manner such as "I would have expected you to do x, y, z and as you have not it leads me to believe you are not a properly trained electrician" that would be a way to present your view of a poster without it being a stock rhetorical pistake. I am allowed my own view of what is considered abuse.

 

[Plonker 3]

I replied pretty much straight away that you use "Are you an Electrician?" not to ask the question, but pretty much as a stock rhetorical pistake , and that as such, if I was answered to in such a manner I would consider it an abusive response. If you were to reply to aposter in a manner such as "I would have expected you to do x, y, z and as you have not it leads me to believe you are not a properly trained electrician" that would be a way to present your view of a poster without it being a stock rhetorical pistake. I am allowed my own view of what is considered abuse.

Im a little under the influence right now, but if get a chance/remember later on i will reply to this post when i get a chance.

 

[Plonker 3]

Morning Mate, Merry Christmas, well I suggested the arms because the Mods would remove a post outside a hidden forum with members names on it, in the 3000 or the arms it would probably be allowed to run a bit so we could see what richy is talking about, the 3000 better, but saying that I am not sure if he has access, I haven't checked his post count.

Merry christmas Mike, I hope the fella with a big beard was good to you.

Again as my last reply to this this thread if I remember I will respond to the later.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Im a little under the influence right now, but if get a chance/remember later on i will reply to this post when i get a chance.

...is that crack cocaine, crystal meth, dilaudid, amphetamines, uppers,downers, the red pill, the blue pill, or.......


just oust a few Stella's

 

[Guest55]

...is that crack cocaine, crystal meth, dilaudid, amphetamines, uppers,downers, the red pill, the blue pill,

that reads like the ingredients list of my xmas pud............

;-)

 

[Plonker 3]

...is that crack cocaine, crystal meth, dilaudid, amphetamines, uppers,downers, the red pill, the blue pill, or.......


just oust a few Stella's

all lf the above.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Ah, good effort.