L
LEighLeigh
Please help, just had a domestic EICR undertaken, a C2 issue: Consumer Unit does not meet minimum I.P rating, what does this mean and how do I check this out? how expensive to rectify? thanks!
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the CU has cable entry holes, these should not be > a certain sizeover and above the cables. . i.e. top is 1mm clearance. sides and bottom are finger size. if not too excessive, some filler would suffice to seal. a picture would help
p.
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Nine times out of ten I never view this as a Code 2, can you show a pic of your consumer unit.
L
LEighLeigh
L
LEighLeigh
Also I'm told the 'FI' is really a 'C2' as it requires further investigation. I'd really appreciate some help with that, any opinions welcome please
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L
LEighLeigh
Yes apologies for that, what does this mean: Circuit forms a Figure of 8 Rather than a complete RFC - is that a C2? He's put FI but in his text msg to me he says that it is a C2, confused
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FI means further investigation. this leads to an unsatisfactory report, same as a C2, but in a different way.
as regards the CU IP rating. there are several methods costing very little. a piece of plastic could be cut to fit and glued over the offending hole/s. blue tak, filler.anything that would stop penetration of the enclosure to the relevant rating.basically one does not want a customer to be able to poke a finger in and come into contact with live parts.
as regards the CU IP rating. there are several methods costing very little. a piece of plastic could be cut to fit and glued over the offending hole/s. blue tak, filler.anything that would stop penetration of the enclosure to the relevant rating.basically one does not want a customer to be able to poke a finger in and come into contact with live parts.
L
LEighLeigh
really appreciate the replay; what does this mean: Circuit forms a Figure of 8 Rather than a complete RFC - do you come across this a lot?
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The fact it has been verified as a figure of eight means it doesn't need investigating (FI) it is what it is. A ring final circuit is as it says a ring or a circle a figure of eight is as it says an eight, just imagine them. Is it dangerous, no providing the connections are sound it is just non conventional but does indicate the circuit has undergone non compliant alterations.
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I see you're in Swansea... is the property also in Swansea?
It could mean that two RFC have been cross-connected, so instead of circuit 1 ends A and B going to MCB1 and circuit 2 ends A and B going to MCB2 you have 1A and 2A on MCB1 and 1B and 2B on MCB2.
It is quite dangerous as you now have 64A of total current before they trip on cable designed for a 32A circuit so a cable fault could result in serious damage or even a fire.
Less obvious is someone switches one MCB off to isolate the sockets and discovers in a careless way they are still live from MCB2. Careless in the sense they did not follow a proper safe isolation procedure to actually check the accessory they are working on really is dead.
L
LEighLeigh
OK if it really is just a loop connected to a 2nd loop, less of a concern than cross-linked RFCs.
L
LEighLeigh
No, you would need to ask the electrician who did the inspection for some detail on that.
Given they have said circuit 6 presumably it is a single MCB involved so closer to @westward10 comment.
L
LEighLeigh
I get the feeling I'm being a bit ripped off, particularly as I think they were lining me up to buy a new CU. What would I be able to go back with so I sound a bit more clued up?
It is still not good for several reasons, one is you can't perform the usual RFC end-end checks and get all/most sockets connections verified that way.
Other point is unless you know where the loops touch you could end up with a lot more of the current on one leg of the circuit so potentially overloading the cable as the RFC typically uses 2.5mm cable rated at 20A (or so, depending on the installation method) but protected by 30A fuse or 32A MCB on the assumption of moderately sane load distribution.
Fixing the circuit is best answer, but if in doubt dropping the MCB to 20A at least removes the risk of cable overload.
Other point is unless you know where the loops touch you could end up with a lot more of the current on one leg of the circuit so potentially overloading the cable as the RFC typically uses 2.5mm cable rated at 20A (or so, depending on the installation method) but protected by 30A fuse or 32A MCB on the assumption of moderately sane load distribution.
Fixing the circuit is best answer, but if in doubt dropping the MCB to 20A at least removes the risk of cable overload.
L
LEighLeigh
L
LEighLeigh
Without seeing it we can't tell.
You could get more photos to show the CU and any holes for cable (or other damage) and post them here.
If @SparkyChick cover your area then she is an excellent choice for a 2nd opinion, but it might just get the same answer but now 2 EICR costs and same remedial expense.
More info and guidance can be found for free in the Best Practice Guide #4 here:
https://www.----------------------------/professional-resources/best-practice-guides/
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Does it usually trip?
Unless you have all of the kitchen and rest of the house with heaters, etc, on the same RFC then you are unlikely to trip the MCB on over current at 20A. However, if it is the RCD that is tripping due to a selection of leaky electronics then the better solution would be a new CU with all RCBO so you don't have several circuits accumulation leakage to the point a common RCD trips.
L
LEighLeigh
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It might be a solution but you still need to check all of the sockets are soundly connected. I suspect the 'FI' code is down to being unable to verify they are OK in the usual end-end test.
Do you know of any work on the sockets since the installation / last inspection that might explain this?
Looking at the photo there are two circuits (at least, MCB fitted) that as marked as "spare". Are they really unused or just not properly documented?
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Dartlec
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If you haven't already then ask for a detailed quote for the remedial works. The C2s are the only ones you must correct - the others are optional.
You are also at liberty to get other quotes for the work - there is no requirement in law to get another report that says 'satisfactory' on it - just to correct the issues that were discovered.
It does make it easier with letting agents to have the one satisfactory report, but all you need by law (assuming this is a let property) is the EICR plus proof that all remedial works have been completed.
The Figure of 8 issue probably needs some more detailed investigation - however, from the looks of the consumer unit I'm guessing it's not a huge property so unlikely to be a lot of sockets?
If the 'alteration' they mention has been made at a socket it may well be easy to resolve. If not, and the sockets don't cover lots of appliances or kitchen, then dropping it to a 20A radial may well be the easiest/cheapest solution.
The consumer unit would appear to be one that was installed within the last 10 years or so - was there any documentation/certification with it, as that may reveal whether the original installer or the current tester has done a better job?
Can someone put me out of my misery..... I've seen no outgoing N tail from a meter before, but never no incoming N tail.
Where is the supplier side N incoming meter tail? And what is that short loop out and back to the cut-out doing?
Sorry if I'm being thick!
Where is the supplier side N incoming meter tail? And what is that short loop out and back to the cut-out doing?
Sorry if I'm being thick!
L
LEighLeigh
Thank you, yes the CU is 7 years old approx and it is a small house, just three bedroom terrace. Sockets number around 10 throughout the whole property I think.
Downstairs recently there was a 'false wall' put in which sits 2 inches in front on the old wall, two sockets had to be moved, now one doesn't work.
I think the sockets do cover the kitchen, but not entirely sure. I'll try and get a picture of the CU tomorrow.
So by law I guess I do have to have a competent person undertake the FI too
Dartlec
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It sounds like the two moved sockets would be a good candidate to start investigating then!
It might be a fairly simple fix (It's possibly just a simple case of connecting wires up differently behind the two sockets.) it's just that often the time set aside for testing doesn't allow things like this to be confirmed or corrected.
Although as @westward10 points out, it should either have been coded as a confirmed "figure of eight", or FI with a description of what the issue is that needs to be checked (presumably poor or inconsistent continuity tests).
From the horses mouth: -
"If the report shows that remedial work or further investigation is required, as set out above, landlords must complete this work within 28 days or any shorter period if specified as necessary in the report. Landlords must then provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days."
Which is yet another example of the poorly written legislation - as technically it doesn't say that the person that carries out the remedial work must be competent.
However, ALL electrical work should be carried out by someone competent, as required by other general legislation - You also need to be able to prove in future that the work has been carried out competently, so a certificate or invoice rather than a hand written note from a handyman is advisable in anything electrical.
With an FI, it can be tricky to decide what remedial work is required though without further testing. It's likely that just replacing the MCB with a 20A without that further testing isn't guaranteed to resolve the issue.
Do you have the test results page, as that might throw a little extra light on the issue.
Dartlec
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having zoomed in a bit, I think that maybe a Henley block on top of the cut out extending either L or N. I'm guessing the other tail is there but hidden in the photo? Maybe behind whatever that shield is under the meter that I can't read...
Either that or the EICR missed rather an obvious problem!
L
LEighLeigh
The Henley block makes sense. Thanks, it just caught my eye and looked wrong.
Assuming the installation works (!) it must be there somehow...unless the TNS is into the N bar....!
It must just be the photo angle, surely!
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The cut out is connected to the meter using a security cable set... I believe it's split concentric and essentially presents the line and neutral as metal pins out of the top of the block under the meter with the white label/red writing. At the service head end, they come in various flavours I believe... the one in the picture has a neutral tail coming out the top... for more modern service heads which present a flat top surface, it's very much like the meter end... metal pins spaced appropriate for the service head.
Usually installed with pre-payment meters I believe to try and prevent tampering and bypassing by completely blocking off all the terminals that could be used to bypass the meter.
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Thanks.
Doesn't greatly throw more light sadly.
the r1, rn, r2 columns should have been completed IMO, even if it was to show no connectivity (>99.9 kOhm for example, depending on the meter).
Looks like that socket circuit supplies the whole house, presumably including the kitchen, so downgrading it to one 20A radial is likely not a good idea, unless there is very little use of kitchen appliances.
Ideally, the fault would be found and the ring resurrected. Failing that, it might be possible to split into two 20A radials.
With that few sockets and good access, I would have thought that a couple of hours would be enough to fully identify the problem and the best solution.
The tester may already have the information to correct the fault, so worth seeing what they quote for it.
I would certainly seek other quotes for the work if you think they are
I would not say that a new consumer unit was necessary (though it would add some benefits), so no reason the legally required remedial work needs to be too expensive.
L
LEighLeigh
Dartlec
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To get a satisfactory EICR, then I'd guess the worst case might be a new length of cable between two sockets.
It's more likely to be a case of either rejig cables behind an existing socket, or possibly blanking off one and disconnecting part of the circuit.
Unless the cable is very old (older than 1970s) or physically damaged, then a full rewire shouldn't be needed and nothing on the bits of the report we've seen would suggest that there are inherent issues.
There would certainly be benefits in splitting the socket circuits into more than one circuit (say one for kitchen, one for rest of house), but that's a different issue to getting a satisfactory EICR.
L
LEighLeigh
That most likely explains it, and I bet it was the builder and not an electrician that did the sockets.
Also it should be fixed anyway, as anyone in the propery is going to have deep suspicions of the soundness of the electrics if they find stuff that is not working as expected.
As above, if it is basically the whole house then your best+cheapest plan is to have the RFC restored to good operation.
If doing it from scratch most would put in a separate circuit for the kitchen given it has the majority of heavy electrical loads in most cases.
Simple logic would dictate that someone who is incompetent should not be doing electrical work!
However as far as meeting the regulations and protecting yourself are concerned you would need the resulting remedial work to be done by someone professional who can test and certify the resulting repairs.
@Dartlec has covered most of the points.
The only remaining issue is the poor IP rating mentioned. Some pictures of the CU showing top/sides/bottom should help folks here advise if it can be fixed without a new CU by patching any holes or fitting cable glands.
Worst case is it has a massive hole due to a hammer-style cable entry point being created and so needs replacing. But if done reasonably well originally it might just be the top has cables with grommets that allow too much entry, and they can be replaced with a better seal.
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