Quality work by a electrical trainee.....

[TJ Anderson]

Today on site, I bought in a couple of 12hp pumps, motors wired in star. They spun in reverse when I hooked them up to the generator fed supply, despite my knowing the configuration was correct and already tested in my workshop.

3 windings and a star point. With the phase rotation you had, configuration was incorrect for the rotor direction you wanted. A motor spinning the other way to what you want is still technically correct electrically......just not the way you wanted it . What he did Switching any 2 phases was the right thing to do.

 

[TJ Anderson]

But as a fairly mature spark he should have known it's correct to maintain correct phase to (in theory) make balancing calculable

A 3 phase motor is still a perfectly balanced load no matter what the direction, hence no neutral required.

 

[TJ Anderson]

So I conclude that the real problem is the selling of the courses, making it seem as if anyone that fancies a pay rise can have one in just a few weeks. In reality you either are right for a line of work or you are not.

Don't write yourself off to forever be unqualified, if you have the knowledge then get the quals anyway

 

[MFS Electrical]

How do you know it was someone who had done one of the Domestic Installer courses Matt?

This next bit isn't aimed at all towards you Matt, just in general....

I realise the above install is appalling but it would be nice if there was a bit of a balance between showing good work and bad work. I wonder why people like having a go at others so much, it's like the Jeremy Kyle of electrics sometimes!

Because honestly good work isn’t so entertaining

 

[SparkyChick]

I've never felt limited in what I can do by anything other than a safe knowledge of my own limitations.

That is what's controls me... I know and understand my limitations and am careful not to push too far outside them in one step.

 

[Deuce]

3 windings and a star point. With the phase rotation you had, configuration was incorrect for the rotor direction you wanted. A motor spinning the other way to what you want is still technically correct electrically......just not the way you wanted it . What he did Switching any 2 phases was the right thing to do.

Nope. I later checked another pump of mine on the same generator spinning correctly. The other two in reverse. All three spun correctly on the same feed at my workshop. There was a cable swapping the phases somewhere.

And really, the point was that I invited him over as I wasn't a spark, and he left me to modify the wiring of a 3ph pump!

 

[Deuce]

A 3 phase motor is still a perfectly balanced load no matter what the direction, hence no neutral required.

Yes but you're need to ensure phase conformity across the entire installation to have any hope of balancing overall. On this job there is no hope or control, so it's not really an issue anyway.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Yes but you're need to ensure phase conformity across the entire installation to have any hope of balancing overall. On this job there is no hope or control, so it's not really an issue anyway.

Not sure what you mean there?

The 3Ph motor is a balanced load, it cannot affect the phase balance of the install at all.

 

[Deuce]

Don't write yourself off to forever be unqualified, if you have the knowledge then get the quals anyway

I dont need to be. I always have a spark to hand in the field and nothing leaves my workshop without a consultation at the start of a design and a test at the end.

I'm also mindful of the fact that qualification would be pointless for me, as I don't do the work on a day to day basis, i would never be able to keep up with regulation the way you guys do. I'm perfectly happy to pay for the time of a good, bang up to date spark. I just checked on our accounts software what i spent on professional services last year - it turns out you all owe me a beer..

 

[Deuce]

Not sure what you mean there?

The 3Ph motor is a balanced load, it cannot affect the phase balance of the install at all.

I know. But the different rotation between motors fed from a single source shows that that along at least one cable/distro the phases were swapped. In theory phase continuity should be maintained from the power source, so that all equipment (not just my pumps) can be out on the phase that will equal the best balance overall. The fact one load is by nature perfectly balanced makes no difference to all the 1ph stuff they will connect to each line.

 

[MFS Electrical]

You can’t ALWAYS blame these type of poor installs on the short course electricians, but as a usual you do as it’s so easy todo so. Fully trained, time served electricians have also done some of these atrocious installs as well over the years, as can be seen on YouTube and other forums and even this forum too. As of yet there’s NO proof this install was done by a short course electrician or a time served one either.

I’m proud to say that I took the Tradeskills4U route and completed their Bronze Electricians course which is actually 3 & half weeks in total (18 days), does this make me an electrician, NO, but on paper and based on the C&G’s exams I took (which nearly EVERY electrician has passed), I’m qualified and classed as a competent person to carry out domestic electrical work, but I am on a very, very long journey of gaining experience, which is never ever ending, even for the ‘time served’ electricians out there.

You realise though that you are on a long journey and for that you should be proud of your ethical and moral standards as it truly is the best way to make the best of yourself with the route into the Industry you have chosen and I bet you wouldn’t dream of leaving an install in anywhere near as bad nick as that. The reason why so many so called “3 week wonders” get slated is because so many cowboys take that route and see it as a path to do whatever the h**l they like and get away with fleecing people. It is very true that their are traditionally trained fully qualified electricians that certainly do not deserve the title as well. But I am willing to bet that the number of cowboy 3 week wonders far exceeds the number of cowboy traditionally trained sparks just because of how most apprentices are effectively ridiculed (I know I certainly was) to ensure the mistakes are learned from and lifelong lessons are ingrained, how ethically devoid certain training centres are and indeed how ethically devoid the aforementioned cowboys are. In every trade, profession and route to trades and professions there are people who are undeserving of the title and as such should be stripped of it and never allowed to be a practicing electrician again, at least not without intensive retraining (both the “3 week wonders” and the traditionally qualified types)
Remember that no matter how qualified, experienced or however much anyone thinks they are there is always room for improvement and room to learn. This forum is gold dust in that sense and it can really open your eyes to things you may have never considered or things you could have done better. Don’t take the criticisms to heart. They aren’t about you. The criticism falls on the hopelessly incompetent people purporting to be electricians. Quite Frankly I don’t give a damn about which route you or anybody else have taken into the industry as long as they understand that a qualification of any type is meaningless without good experience to back it up.

 

[MFS Electrical]

That is what's controls me... I know and understand my limitations and am careful not to push too far outside them in one step.

As is the basis of a “good Electrician” knowing your limitations and your weaknesses allows you to build on them and become better that applies to everyone. Because no one is perfect

 

[TJ Anderson]

I think we are at cross purposes here Deuce......

You stated you bought motors and that they ran in reverse.

If your L1, L2 and L3 ' s are switched within your install then that's another issue but easy enough to resolve.

 

[MFS Electrical]

I think we are at cross purposes here Deuce......

You stated you bought motors and that they ran in reverse.

If your L1, L2 and L3 ' s are switched within your install then that's another issue but easy enough to resolve.

You developed a stutter?

 

[TJ Anderson]

You developed a stutter?

Yeah....lol. That and no patience with the post reply button

 

[MFS Electrical]

Yeah....lol. That and no patience with the post reply button

Ahh thought you were emphasising your point I’m just wondering if there’s any room to connect the flux capacitor and the jiggerboom to the contraptions you and @Deuce are wiring? Might help the motors turn the right way?

 

[Deuce]

I think we are at cross purposes here......

You stated you bought motors and that they ran in reverse.

If your L1, L2 and L3 ' s are switched within your install then that's another issue but easy enough to resolve.

Of course, and it was easy to resolve. Swap two phases. My equipment was correctly wired, there was a phase swap somewhere between one set of pumps and another, all fed from one source.

But irrespective of the fact it's easy to resolve, my point was that in theory the spark in charge of the entire installation accross the site should want to explore evidence of phase swapping as "in theory" phase loading over the entire installation should be as close to equal as possible.

We probably have over 200 various bits of kit hooked up so it's a nonsense trying to balance it anyway. But by the books that is correct. What is not correct is asking me to re-wire 2 motors on site without at least testing my work prior to use.

 

[TJ Anderson]

I’m just wondering if there’s any room to connect the flux capacitor and the jiggerboom to the contraptions you and @Deuce are wiring? Might help the motors turn the right way?

Will have to take a rain check on the jiggerboom.....but the Flux capacitor in that Delorean was deffo a balanced load lol......so absolutely.....crack on haha

 

[TJ Anderson]

What is not correct is asking me to re-wire 2 motors on site without at least testing my work prior to use.

Im gonna sound like a ---- taker now. I'm not.

You own the company and you employ a spark right?

Why didn't your spark do it as he was there anyway.

It sounds like you, as the boss, have chosen to do it......and then blamed the spark for letting you do it. Did you ask him to test it after you did it?

If you were confident enough to wire it up, then by definition, you should understand it and then you should be confident enough to test it and run it......otherwise the spark who was there anyway might aswell have done it himself.....

 

[Deuce]

Im gonna sound like a **** taker now. I'm not.

You own the company and you employ a spark right?

Why didn't your spark do it as he was there anyway.

It sounds like you, as the boss, have chosen to do it......and then blamed the spark for letting you do it. Did you ask him to test it after you did it?

If you were confident enough to wire it up, then by definition, you should understand it and then you should be confident enough to test it and run it......otherwise the spark who was there anyway might aswell have done it himself.....

Yes to owning company. I don't employ a spark, they're on all sites I work on to in help deploy temp power and generally keep things safe.

To be honest I think he just didn't care to go hunting for the cable which was had the phases swapped.

I would have pushed the need to test but the pumps will only run for 5 minutes under direct supervision by myself or my business partner before being retired to our stock and fully tested next time they go out, and the fact is only two phases were swapped, there is nothing to test that hadn't already been tested just 2 days ago. The power supply to the pump was tested as it was put in place. If it was a complete re-wire it would be different and a change of location I would push the issue. As it is, I effectively part re-wired a plug and didn't need to touch the already tested earth connection.

 

[richy3333]

For as long as we have tight-fisted, short-sighted employers who perceive apprentices as a cost rather than an investment, then I'm afraid we are never going to get to the root of the problem. What a sad day it is when the industry has to resort to imported labour and Electrical Trainee courses to address the issue of skill shortages within the industry. I don't care what anyone says, it just isn't possible to become an electrician in five weeks. If it is, then why are apprentices still having to go through years of training? This makes no sense at all. I'm totally against these short courses. Granted, this route has worked for SC and she has turned-out to be a first-class electrician and a shining example to those seeking to enter our the trade, however, she is very much the exception rather than the rule.

My apprentice is in the first year of his training. He's an adult apprentice who has just turned 30. He wanted to become an electrician when he was 16, but couldn't find a single company in the Glasgow area who were willing to offer him an apprenticeship. What a sad state of affairs. So instead, he trained as a painter and decorator (he at least had the sense not to become a wetpants ). He decided last year that it was very much a case of now or never if he was to realise his dream of becoming an electrician. So he started contacting electrical contracting businesses in Glasgow. I was impressed with his ambition and determination and offered him a work trial. That was a year ago. He's been with me since then, initially as a CIS contractor, and as a registered bona-fide apprentice since August. I see him as an investment, not a cost.

My apprentice is happy to pay his dues, so to speak, and complete a three-year apprenticeship that will allow him to gain the knowledge and skills that he needs to become a qualified electrician. He's happy to initially work for £10.08 an hour because he knows that in three years from now the sacrifice he is now making will eventually reap big rewards. So, if a 30 year-old married man with 3 kids to support can sustain himself and his family for the duration of an adult apprenticeship lasting three years, then so too can all the people with £££ signs in their eyes who sign-up for Electrical Trainee courses with the aim of becoming 'electricians' in five weeks so that they can then enter the electrical contracting industry and make **** loads of money.

Just done something similar myself JK.

Local lad (26) started his SECTT training in August. I Wanted to give something back to the industry our local community and give someone worthy a trade for the rest of his life. I don’t have many years left in me, maybe 10; and by that time he should be more than competent to take over from me completely. That’s what I’d like anyway. He’s as keen as mustard, on a low apprentice wage and having to work other weekend jobs to make ends meet. I help him as much as I can and am very proud. In 3 years time he will have finished his apprenticeship, have a SJIB grading and a job for as long as he wants it

BTW the original pictures that started this thread are appauling regardless of who did it. Nothing will change until the government regulate the building industry properly and lets face it, as not enough people die it won’t happen.

As for diabolical workmanship see my thread about a electrical trainee!

 

[stevels4]

Meter tails not harmonised either with blue/brown from the cut out to the meter then greys to the DPI, smart meter too so done fairly recently.
So what’s the course instruction for fitting KMFs...be careful tightening the cover screws as they have a tendency to crack the cover...if this does happen use the black insulation tape provided!

 

[JK-Electrical]

Local lad (26) started his SECTT training in August. I Wanted to give something back to the industry our local community and give someone worthy a trade for the rest of his life. I don’t have many years left in me, maybe 10; and by that time he should be more than competent to take over from me completely.

That was pretty much my line of thinking too, Richy. I'm pushing 60 and aiming to be semi-retired no later than my 63rd birthday. When he's qualified as an electrician, my apprentice will then be given an apprentice of his own. That's the plan.

That’s what I’d like anyway. He’s as keen as mustard, on a low apprentice wage and having to work other weekend jobs to make ends meet. I help him as much as I can and am very proud. In 3 years time he will have finished his apprenticeship, have a SJIB grading and a job for as long as he wants it

My apprentice is also very keen and has the makings of a first-class spark.

BTW the original pictures that started this thread are appaling regardless of who did it. Nothing will change until the government regulate the building industry properly and lets face it, as not enough people die it won’t happen.

I know for a fact that NICEIC are the major obstacle to Scottish electricians being given protection of title and it becoming a criminal offence for anyone to work as, or even advertise themselves as electricians. Their obstinance to this sensible and much-needed proposal is borne out of their determination to preserve their money-spinning short courses whereby plumbers and just about anyone else can become "domestic installers" within five weeks and then be let loose on an unsuspecting public, many of whom mistakenly believe they're hiring a bona-fide, qualified electrician.

So on the the one hand, the NICEIC presents itself as a custodian of industry standards, often re-inventing the regulations as it sees fit. While on the other hand, this profit-making organisation readily accepts just about any Tom, Dick or Harry into into its ranks as a "Domestic Installer". And from what I've seen of the 'workmanship' produced by these "Domestic Installers", there are evidently a hell of a lot more Dicks trading as NICEIC-sanctioned "Domestic Installers" than Toms or Harrys.

These five-week "Domestic Installer" need to be brought to an end IMHO. But only Parliamentary legislation will achieve that. Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

As for diabolical workmanship see my thread about a electrical trainee!

I've just read through the thread and made a post.

 

[oracle]

Something I thought long and hard about was the 18th Edition taking competent out of the definitions and replacing it with Electrically Skilled.

An electrical appliance repairer has electrical skills. An auto electrician has electrical skills. The list could go on and on with trades using their electrical skills.

I have installed the wiring and switchgear for huge blast freezers but wouldn't get a job as a refrigerator repairer.

So, who is electrically skilled and what work can they do?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Something I thought long and hard about was the 18th Edition taking competent out of the definitions and replacing it with Electrically Skilled.

Looking at this 'work' posted recently, I think I would supplement 'Electrically Skilled' with 'and who isn't terminally practically challenged.'

Some people should really pack all their tools away in their toolbags and advertise them on ebay.

 

[Deuce]

Looking at this 'work' posted recently, I think I would supplement 'Electrically Skilled' with 'and who isn't terminally practically challenged.'

Some people should really pack all their tools away in their toolbags and advertise them on ebay.

So much can be traced back to basic practical incompetence. I reckon half the violations out there are not a result of a lack of knowledge, but people taking shortcuts because 'the correct way is too difficult'!

 

[JK-Electrical]

I reckon half the violations out there are not a result of a lack of knowledge, but people taking shortcuts because 'the correct way is too difficult'!

Or more expensive.

This is why I find myself continually competing against people who do EICRs for £40-60, consumer unit changeovers for £285 and house rewires for £1800. But of course, even at these ridiculous rock-bottom, pocket-money prices, the job is always done to the highest standards and complies with all the regulations. Aye right.

 

[gembrain]

Interesting to know how Joe Public can choose between one ‘professional’ and another ‘professional’ when you see a job like this that actually any vaguely serious DIYer would be ashamed of.

 

[Deuce]

Interesting to know how Joe Public can choose between one ‘professional’ and another ‘professional’ when you see a job like this that actually any vaguely serious DIYer would be ashamed of.

True. Most people dabbling with electrical work in their own home for the very first time would be pretty ashamed to end up with a mess like this.

All the training in the world won't change the fact that this particular electrical trainee clearly doesn't give a f...