Quality work by a electrical trainee.....

[SparkyChick]

@Deuce , @gazdkw82 and @Pete999 ...

Based on the fact you're all saying short coursers lacking sufficient practical experience and knowledge, is it entirely inconceivable for you that some may have sufficient practical experience and knowledge before they go that route?

This is often something that's stated... insufficient practical skills and experience... so what practical skills and experience do you believe are required?

 

[Octopus]

The schemes need to see more evidence of installation work before they let people "in" imho

The UK has an awful history of not training people, then we all complain ............ we can't have it both ways ............

Companies with over 10 sparks need to offer apprenticeships ..........

 

[SparkyChick]

The schemes need to see more evidence of installation work before they let people "in" imho

The UK has an awful history of not training people, then we all complain ............ we can't have it both ways ............

Companies with over 10 sparks need to offer apprenticeships ..........

The problem with that, particularly for people like me who wanted to go self-employed is it's tricky because jobs worthy of being inspected are normally ones that require notification (I know that's not always the case).

Perhaps a better approach is more frequent assessments in the first couple of years?

 

[Toneyz]

Not disputing the workmanship at all as its atrocious but was it defiantly a electrical trainee who done this work, I know they can become easy targets.

I just cant imagine someone turning up to a re-wire a house and admitting they have 4 weeks of training and 3 of them was in the classroom.

How come its 4 weeks now 5 was not enough.

 

[Toneyz]

Perhaps a better approach is more frequent assessments in the first couple of years?

If they did it would be better to see a job in progress.

 

[Pete999]

How come its 4 weeks now 5 was not enough.

Overtime at School

 

[Toneyz]

Companies with over 10 sparks need to offer apprenticeships ..........

The problem is that companies are reluctant to have an apprenticeship program once the companies considered apprentices an investment for the future as older electricians retire new blood took over and once apprentices came out of their time they stayed with the company and the company would have got their investment back. Now, this does not happen.

 

[Octopus]

The problem is that companies are reluctant to have an apprenticeship program once the companies considered apprentices an investment for the future as older electricians retire new blood took over and once apprentices came out of their time they stayed with the company and the company would have got their investment back. Now, this does not happen.

Because they leave?

 

[Pete999]

The problem is that companies are reluctant to have an apprenticeship program once the companies considered apprentices an investment for the future as older electricians retire new blood took over and once apprentices came out of their time they stayed with the company and the company would have got their investment back. Now, this does not happen.

I'm out of breath reading that Ant

 

[Octopus]

Because they leave?

So employers have 2 choices - pay them more when they complete their time OR place golden handcuffs on them as part of the apprenticeship so they have to pay back money if they leave

Its daft ................. either way

 

[Toneyz]

I'm out of breath reading that Ant

Well at least you lasted the distance Pete.

 

[JAWS]

Same with most things in life really where they are normally only bought to the attention when things are bad just like the photos in the first post.
Very rare will an electrican post a pic of an install with the heading "look at this lovely piece of tidy work I see on a job today"

 

[Pete999]

Well at least you lasted the distance Pete.

I did, Mate.

 

[JK-Electrical]

For as long as we have tight-fisted, short-sighted employers who perceive apprentices as a cost rather than an investment, then I'm afraid we are never going to get to the root of the problem. What a sad day it is when the industry has to resort to imported labour and Electrical Trainee courses to address the issue of skill shortages within the industry. I don't care what anyone says, it just isn't possible to become an electrician in five weeks. If it is, then why are apprentices still having to go through years of training? This makes no sense at all. I'm totally against these short courses. Granted, this route has worked for SC and she has turned-out to be a first-class electrician and a shining example to those seeking to enter our the trade, however, she is very much the exception rather than the rule.

My apprentice is in the first year of his training. He's an adult apprentice who has just turned 30. He wanted to become an electrician when he was 16, but couldn't find a single company in the Glasgow area who were willing to offer him an apprenticeship. What a sad state of affairs. So instead, he trained as a painter and decorator (he at least had the sense not to become a wetpants ). He decided last year that it was very much a case of now or never if he was to realise his dream of becoming an electrician. So he started contacting electrical contracting businesses in Glasgow. I was impressed with his ambition and determination and offered him a work trial. That was a year ago. He's been with me since then, initially as a CIS contractor, and as a registered bona-fide apprentice since August. I see him as an investment, not a cost.

My apprentice is happy to pay his dues, so to speak, and complete a three-year apprenticeship that will allow him to gain the knowledge and skills that he needs to become a qualified electrician. He's happy to initially work for £10.08 an hour because he knows that in three years from now the sacrifice he is now making will eventually reap big rewards. So, if a 30 year-old married man with 3 kids to support can sustain himself and his family for the duration of an adult apprenticeship lasting three years, then so too can all the people with £££ signs in their eyes who sign-up for Electrical Trainee courses with the aim of becoming 'electricians' in five weeks so that they can then enter the electrical contracting industry and make ---- loads of money.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

@Deuce , @gazdkw82 and @Pete999 ...

Based on the fact you're all saying short coursers lacking sufficient practical experience and knowledge, is it entirely inconceivable for you that some may have sufficient practical experience and knowledge before they go that route?

This is often something that's stated... insufficient practical skills and experience... so what practical skills and experience do you believe are required?

I am a short courser too but did 6 years with a company with no official apprenticeship. Then after my quals went self employed. Been that way since.
The trouble is these courses don't offer the practical practice required etc.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

I am a short courser too but did 6 years with a company with no official apprenticeship. Then after my quals went self employed. Been that way since.
The trouble is these courses don't offer the practical practice required etc.

Thing is with my limited (I think 6 years is a bit limited) experience with a few short course I could Do anything by myself.. I found that weird and I'll admit slightly nerving at the time. But to this date not one error has been reported (maybe they died so couldnt contact me ).

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I thought you guys may be interested in these pics from a "spark" who did one of these 4 week courses and went straight to self employed!

This was for a house Re-wire, I actually quoted for this job originally but the house owner chose this contractor instead, but then contacted me afterwards to take a look as they were concerned by the work completed.

When I walked in and saw the work, I was truly shocked, it was truly dangerous!
I contacted the Niceic for the homeowner who have now completely Re-wired the house with another contractor under the platinum guarantee.
Original "Spark" is no longer registered, so its good to see the Niceic do take action!

This was apparently a finished job which she has been paid in full for

Anyway have fun with these :

C/U was moved, so quite rightly a switch fuse was installed, not so sure on the insulation methods mind:
View attachment 45259

Urm...., oh and thats data going behind the C/U there...
View attachment 45256

Wet pants is always wrapping his pipes around my cables, I know I will wrap my spaghetti around his pipes..
View attachment 45254

Meter tails and more chased horizontally through wall, not in a safe zone..
View attachment 45255

Now what is that bare wire for, lets poke it back out of the box...
View attachment 45253

Expanding foam doesn't seem to be working at fixing the boxes..., oh and that damn bare wire again! and no grommet!
View attachment 45258

Well the expanding foam wasn't working, lets just leave them hanging...
View attachment 45252



View attachment 45261

Its all too much work chopping the boxes into the wall..
View attachment 45262

Wago boxes are over-rated...
View attachment 45257

This surely has to be up there with the worst?

Hi Matt.

Did you see my post yesterday? Just wondering how you new it was someone who did a Domestic Installers course?
Did you just assume this or did you find out somehow?
Cheers.

 

[Anthony S]

Domestic work as per usual, not many chancers can slip through the net and get work in the commercial and industrial game.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I am a short courser too but did 6 years with a company with no official apprenticeship. Then after my quals went self employed. Been that way since.
The trouble is these courses don't offer the practical practice required etc.

This discussion has come up so many times. I think there are some time served electricians who (rightly or wrongly) will not accept that some Domestic Installers are very good at there jobs.

My own experience is that the 6 month course I did had mature students (30+ years old). We had life experience, we genuinely wanted to be installers and to do a good job. I think some kids who have gone into it through the traditional route at 16 (when they may not really know what they want) and have been doing it for years may be bored with it and not put there heart into it, and therefore not do a high quality job.

Every single job I do I give my all and take pride in it, I really do. I go home and find my mind smiling at the neat and tidy (and safe) install. I'm not saying that can't happen with time served electricians but if I'd stayed in my bar job at the Colliford Tavern on Bodmin Moor from age 16 I'm not sure I'd still be polishing the glasses to quite the same shine!

Ps... I know there are some very experienced electricians on this site who still take a lot of pride in there work... not aimed at you guys.... or Sparky Chick

 

[Fitzy]

The problem with that, particularly for people like me who wanted to go self-employed is it's tricky because jobs worthy of being inspected are normally ones that require notification (I know that's not always the case).

Perhaps a better approach is more frequent assessments in the first couple of years?

I totally agree with you sparkychick, until you’ve gained at least 3+ years experience you need to have a minimum of 2 jobs inspected (after initial assessment) each year during your membership. If your membership is not continuous it starts again.

 

[Anthony S]

No-ones an Electrician unless they can do Domestic, Commercial, Industrial. No such thing as an Domestic Installer, its come about to generate money for schemes, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In response to SparkyChick’s post:
Not sure about fixing accessories to the inside of cupboards.
Don’t like the two lengths of trunking feeding the accessories under the cupboards.
Don’t like cables fixed in place under floor boards.
Do like the metal plates protecting cables through joists.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No-ones an Electrician unless they can do Domestic, Commercial, Industrial. No such thing as an Domestic Installer, its come about to generate money for schemes, nothing more nothing less.

An electrician is someone who conducts electrical work for remuneration.

 

[Deuce]

@Deuce , @gazdkw82 and @Pete999 ...

Based on the fact you're all saying short coursers lacking sufficient practical experience and knowledge, is it entirely inconceivable for you that some may have sufficient practical experience and knowledge before they go that route?

This is often something that's stated... insufficient practical skills and experience... so what practical skills and experience do you believe are required?

I was saying you won't get those skills from a 4 week course. Of course, some people just have a strong practical ability and enough common sense to get things mostly right without specific training.

Likewise, other people can work on site an entire career and still be fairly useless!

 

[SparkyChick]

In response to SparkyChick’s post:
Not sure about fixing accessories to the inside of cupboards.
Don’t like the two lengths of trunking feeding the accessories under the cupboards.
Don’t like cables fixed in place under floor boards.
Do like the metal plates protecting cables through joists.

Thanks @spinlondon

Just some questions if I may

The accessories in cupboards... what do you see as the issue with that?

Two lengths of trunking... I agree, not ashamed to say I made a mistake, should have used bigger trunking to begin with. Just couldn't get all the cables in one length. Genuine mistake.

Cable fixed in place under the floor boards... I'm guessing is the cabling around the Surewire lighting junction box? Generally agree, the only cables that were fixed were those going to the boxes themselves. They have cable clamps anyway and movement was limited. The rest were just pulled in.

 

[SparkyChick]

I was saying you won't get those skills from a 4 week course.

And I absolutely would not argue with any that holds that view, because it's fundamentally correct. There is not enough practical time on the short courses.

There's enough to get the basics of wiring down, but once you start to throw into the equation construction methods etc., forget it.

 

[Pete999]

Thanks @spinlondon

Just some questions if I may

The accessories in cupboards... what do you see as the issue with that?

Two lengths of trunking... I agree, not ashamed to say I made a mistake, should have used bigger trunking to begin with. Just couldn't get all the cables in one length. Genuine mistake.

Cable fixed in place under the floor boards... I'm guessing is the cabling around the Surewire lighting junction box? Generally agree, the only cables that were fixed were those going to the boxes themselves. They have cable clamps anyway and movement was limited. The rest were just pulled in.

Back in the days before MF JBs, JBs were fixed to platforms constructed under the floor with all cables clipped prior to making any connections, not only was this good practice, it made connecting a lot easier, and with large lighting JBs a work of professionalism, not like they teach today make the connections and chuck it (the JB ) under the floor. I some times wonder as long as the JB position is noted on the EIC why we can't still use them, I suppose it is the lack of training given out in these "be a Spark in 5 weeks courses" no skills taught just how to get the exam passed.

 

[gazdkw82]

@Deuce , @gazdkw82 and @Pete999 ...

Based on the fact you're all saying short coursers lacking sufficient practical experience and knowledge, is it entirely inconceivable for you that some may have sufficient practical experience and knowledge before they go that route?

This is often something that's stated... insufficient practical skills and experience... so what practical skills and experience do you believe are required?

That's a good point. In this instance as long as the individual has at least a few years in the trade then I'd consider that acceptable experience.

The overall problem for me is the people who run these courses generaly help you through. Some of the ones in my class we're clueless without being promoted in the right direction (even at the simplest task) not all are like this but some are and that's the danger.

I think after you pass you should still need 2 years experience before you are classed as competent. that doesn't apply if you have prior experience.

Electrical work is very diverse. Personally I only believe you can be classed competent once you have had exposure to numerous situations that you can only get working out within the trade.

 

[123]

Back in the days before MF JBs, JBs were fixed to platforms constructed under the floor with all cables clipped prior to making any connections, not only was this good practice, it made connecting a lot easier, and with large lighting JBs a work of professionalism, not like they teach today make the connections and chuck it (the JB ) under the floor. I some times wonder as long as the JB position is noted on the EIC why we can't still use them, I suppose it is the lack of training given out in these "be a Spark in 5 weeks courses" no skills taught just how to get the exam passed.

I don't see why the round 30A JB exists any more. Old practice had often seen the cpc twisted together and left outside the JB, this practice has carried on and those that use them still do this today.

With Wago's and MF products so readily available that do a better job, and a quicker install, why would anyone think installing a round 30A JB is a good idea?

 

[Fitzy]

That's a good point. In this instance as long as the individual has at least a few years in the trade then I'd consider that acceptable experience.

The overall problem for me is the people who run these courses generaly help you through. Some of the ones in my class we're clueless without being promoted in the right direction (even at the simplest task) not all are like this but some are and that's the danger.

I think after you pass you should still need 2 years experience before you are classed as competent. that doesn't apply if you have prior experience.

Electrical work is very diverse. Personally I only believe you can be classed competent once you have had exposure to numerous situations that you can only get working out within the trade.

You could use this analogy for most things in life, like driving lessons, they only teach you how to pass the driving test, not to drive in general, that’s learnt after you pass. So should we all have been put on a special licence for the first few years?

Take Firefighters for instance. Now a days most counties Fire Brigades only put new recruits through a 6-8 week basic training course, then the rest of the training is done ‘on the job’, yet when I joined in 1989, I had to complete 26 weeks basic training which was much more intense and activity based and was a minimum of 3-4 weeks per module of the job involved. Now, that has to be crammed on to 6-8 weeks which is roughly 5-10 days per module, BUT, they’re still competent firefighters who when push comes to shove can tackle an incident singled handly.

 

[gazdkw82]

Yes, however a firefighter works within a team. I bet the recently passed firefighter will still be monitored as if he/she was a junior.

Some electricians coming out of a 5 week course and no really experience are going it alone and taking on all sorts of jobs

 

[Toneyz]

and a quicker install, why would anyone think installing a round 30A JB is a good idea?

We did.---Classroom we had already run the 2.5/1.5 PVC/LSF around the perimeter of the room asked to add two extra sockets cut 2.5 near where one socket would be put the other leg to first socket new cable between that and another new socket then back to 30A JB above-suspended ceiling screwed to a wooden panel. We were unable to pull the new cable back to the previous socket in the room so JB that we had in the van helped us out.

 

[Deuce]

And I absolutely would not argue with any that holds that view, because it's fundamentally correct. There is not enough practical time on the short courses.

There's enough to get the basics of wiring down, but once you start to throw into the equation construction methods etc., forget it.

This is a key point I think. Many dodgy shortcuts are taken by tradespeople because they want to make the physical installation easier. They may well know it's wrong to run cable the way they do, but they do it anyway as they don't have the practical ability to adapt the property to run it the correct way.

This is compounded when a customer doesn't want to have to much messy work done, and gives off the impression they want it done easily/cheaply. I'm sure often the customer is as much an instigator of these shortcuts as the spark that nods along and does the work. It's on the sparks shoulders in the end though, they are the professional.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I thought you guys may be interested in these pics from a "spark" who did one of these 4 week courses and went straight to self employed!

This was for a house Re-wire, I actually quoted for this job originally but the house owner chose this contractor instead, but then contacted me afterwards to take a look as they were concerned by the work completed.

When I walked in and saw the work, I was truly shocked, it was truly dangerous!
I contacted the Niceic for the homeowner who have now completely Re-wired the house with another contractor under the platinum guarantee.
Original "Spark" is no longer registered, so its good to see the Niceic do take action!

This was apparently a finished job which she has been paid in full for

Anyway have fun with these :

C/U was moved, so quite rightly a switch fuse was installed, not so sure on the insulation methods mind:
View attachment 45259

Urm...., oh and thats data going behind the C/U there...
View attachment 45256

Wet pants is always wrapping his pipes around my cables, I know I will wrap my spaghetti around his pipes..
View attachment 45254

Meter tails and more chased horizontally through wall, not in a safe zone..
View attachment 45255

Now what is that bare wire for, lets poke it back out of the box...
View attachment 45253

Expanding foam doesn't seem to be working at fixing the boxes..., oh and that damn bare wire again! and no grommet!
View attachment 45258

Well the expanding foam wasn't working, lets just leave them hanging...
View attachment 45252



View attachment 45261

Its all too much work chopping the boxes into the wall..
View attachment 45262

Wago boxes are over-rated...
View attachment 45257

This surely has to be up there with the worst?

Sorry chap, but you've started a controversial thread which is fair enough but then given no further input. The above accusation about the Domestic installer courses are worthless without backup facts which you have failed to give.

The above work is not the fault of a short course in the slightest, nor is it the fault of any course or apprenticeship. It is just some person who doesn't give a xxxx about themselves or the safety of others.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Response to @SparkyChick:
Some would say that accessories should be fixed only to the fabric of the building.
From your picture, it looks like the accessories are attached to the more solid side of the cupboard, not the flimsy back panel.
As such and taking into consideration that it’s a fitted kitchen (which makes the cupboards virtually part of the fabric of the building), I don’t have a problem with them.
However, others (including assessors) may have.

Surprised you couldn’t fit all the conductors in just one length of trunking?

Don’t like cables fixed under floorboards and above ceilings, as it’s a pain when it comes round to rewiring them.

 

[SparkyChick]

Response to @SparkyChick:
Some would say that accessories should be fixed only to the fabric of the building.
From your picture, it looks like the accessories are attached to the more solid side of the cupboard, not the flimsy back panel.
As such and taking into consideration that it’s a fitted kitchen (which makes the cupboards virtually part of the fabric of the building), I don’t have a problem with them.
However, others (including assessors) may have.

Surprised you couldn’t fit all the conductors in just one length of trunking?

Don’t like cables fixed under floorboards and above ceilings, as it’s a pain when it comes round to rewiring them.

Thanks hon

I know what you mean about fixing stuff to flimsy panels and I agree. That unit was pretty sturdy and was well fixed, but I understand what you're saying.

In the trunking, 2 x 10mm to/from the CCU (requested for future proofing), 2x2.5mm for the ring and then 2x2.5mm 1 each out of the FCU. It was tight in the straight bits but handling the bends at the T, was almost impossible.

I agree on the cables fixed under boards, that's the only place they were fixed, by virtue of the fact the box requires it.

Thanks for taking the time, it's much appreciated.

 

[TJ Anderson]

SparkyChick, that is really nice quality work. You are also clearly very knowledgeable, much more than many graded sparks IMO, and it seems mad that you won't get a JIB grade with the quals you hold. It's a shame they don't still do the NVQ3 with the knowledge assessment, you would walk it.

I find the constant belittling of short course people rather tiring too as it puts a divide in the forum. I'm a fully qualified sparks and I work in a large firm so there are also many fully qualified idiots lol.

The crux of it is, you never stop learning, so whatever someone's start in the industry is, push to be the very best you can......and in all cases....... better than your colleagues.....which is not hard where I work haha.

 

[SparkyChick]

SparkyChick, that is really nice quality work. You are also clearly very knowledgeable, much more than many graded sparks IMO, and it seems mad that you won't get a JIB grade with the quals you hold. It's a shame they don't still do the NVQ3 with the knowledge assesment, you would walk it.

I find the constant belittling of short course people rather tiring too as it puts a divide in the forum. I'm a fully qualified sparks and I work in a large firm so there are also many fully qualified idiots lol.

The crux of it is, you never stop learning, so whatever someone's start in the industry is, push to be the very best you can......and in all cases....... better than your colleagues.....which is not hard where I work haha.

Thanks TJ

I'm actually on the road to a JIB grade

I've taken the level 3 tech cert exams and passed them all (my motor control knowledge let me down somewhat on the science exam because I've just not done much of it), got one written project to do which contains quite a bit about motor control so I'm learning quite a bit for that.

Working on my NVQ3 portfolio and have my AM2 booked for December

All courtesy of funding by the Welsh Government.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Top Stuff SparkyChick, you'll be Technician Grade in no time!

 

[Deuce]

It's totally about the person, not the course. The only problem with the courses is that they're sold as an instant entry into a well paid job. However disastrous that might turn out to be.

I am completely unqualified. Not just electrically, but in general - I left school at 14. I've never felt limited in what I can do by anything other than a safe knowledge of my own limitations. For example, I have a thread on the go on here right now about whether to isolate or earth a rather unusual piece of kit... There are sparks on here that I know enjoy to mull over such problems in far more depth than I have knowledge to match.

In other areas I sometimes ask for help out of simple recognition that I'm not a spark! Today on site, I bought in a couple of 12hp pumps, motors wired in star. They spun in reverse when I hooked them up to the generator fed supply, despite my knowing the configuration was correct and already tested in my workshop. Somewhere in the miles of cable and/or portable distribution box there were phases wired incorrectly. I asked one of the site sparks if they could check the back through with a phase sequence indicator, or at least check the generator to rule that out. He shrugged and said just swap the phases on the motor... Of course I know that I can do that!!! But as a fairly mature spark he should have known it's correct to maintain correct phase to (in theory) make balancing calculable. He also shouldn't invite me to rewire a 3ph motor and put it back into use! To be fair we both work in an industry where in reality solutions matter more than method. And he probably guessed I could sort it in minutes. I sometimes wonder if my knowledge would be as good if I were trained... Having to work it out alone has made knowledge feel very valuable indeed. And my discipline largely comes from knowing I have to be pretty perfect as I'm so easily criticised if I make a mistake, or even a silly comment, when I can't claim to have even part p to my name.

I'm not good at my job because I've done it for many years. I'm good at my job because I choose to do things that I'm good at naturally. So I conclude that the real problem is the selling of the courses, making it seem as if anyone that fancies a pay rise can have one in just a few weeks. In reality you either are right for a line of work or you are not.