Currently reading:
Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permission

Discuss Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permission in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

I got the email as well - it is shocking if no one else has responded...no doubt they will be the folks complaining to high heaven if the change does go through!

We are not members of BPVA and to be honest we won't be if they are not even alerting their members to silly changes like this which will have an impact on completing installations when there are fit cut deadlines to meet! Grrrrr
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

They might be being selective or else there may be a spam issue, - we responded :) haven't got an email response :( (yet) others may not know that a response has been sent out becasue of that.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

Close Geographic Region
A close geographic region[1] is one that meets at least one of the following criteria;

1) The postcodes of any of the premises where a SSEG installation is planned by the same organisation are the same when the last two letters are ignored…ieAB1 2xx where xx could be any pair of letters or where x could be any letter.

2) The premises where a SSEG installation is planned by the same organisation are within 500m of each other.
[1] This represents an area typically served by a single low voltage feeder circuit fed from a single distribution transformer.


This is from yesterdays email, effectively the concerning bits have not been changed. There is a 28 day limit though...

In our local postcode we have 19 installs within their definition of a Close Geographic Region We know that ther are on at least 5 different substations possibly many more, We are a very locally focussed company in a small town. There are many more installs by other installers in the same postcode.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

I'm not sure what they mean by "a single distribution transformer."

Here, in a very rural area, we have all power coming from individual 11kV overhead lines with a transformer almost for each house. I'm guessing that the "distribution transformer" means that feeding the 11kV line, not the 11kV/240V ones.

Our postcodes also cover large areas - the one for our house covers a road 1.5 miles long. There are probably 100 11kV/240V transformers within a single postcode and possibly thousands within the AB1 2xx equivalent area.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

I'm not sure what they mean by "a single distribution transformer."

Here, in a very rural area, we have all power coming from individual 11kV overhead lines with a transformer almost for each house. I'm guessing that the "distribution transformer" means that feeding the 11kV line, not the 11kV/240V ones.

Our postcodes also cover large areas - the one for our house covers a road 1.5 miles long. There are probably 100 11kV/240V transformers within a single postcode and possibly thousands within the AB1 2xx equivalent area.

Those on this conference call, please argue our corner in a calm manner. We understand what they are trying to do by not having single transfomrers and substations overloaded but these proposals will not acheive this and are unworkable as they currently stand.

Everyone I have spoken to about this issue has been firmly behind our and other installers stance
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

Some brief feedback on the teleconference yesterday...

Generally constructive, with Ofgem open to our concerns, and pretty much all the installers saying the same things as far as I could tell.

Key points raised were

1 - Timescales for DNO's turning around stage 2 applications should be reduced from their current 45 day maximum, otherwise apart from anything else, it will result in a situation where installers are better off just waiting 28 days and doing it anyway.

2 - Geographic area definition is still far too wide, and the guidance note about it referring to an area served by 1 substation currently just confuses the situation and leaves the entire thing open to interpretation by the DNO / OFgem at a later date that could result in a customers installation being cut off. Ofgem were saying that the new guidance note was intended to clarify the situation so that it would only apply to systems that are actually installed on the same transformer - in which case this would be much much better as it would mean that we as installers could use our own judgement - eg if there's a transformer in the field then there's not point worrying about an installation carried out 20 miles away that just happened to be in the same postcode district.

3 - Suggestions made about alternative lower limits of systems size eg 2.2kW below which there would never be a need to prenotify the DNO - unlikely to make it into the current version, but could be looked at in future.

4 - Suggestions made about a database being made available to installers showing areas where there were known problems already, so installers could avoid them, and potentially this could be a better solution than the current proposal - OFgem were interested in spreading the idea as a voluntary best practice idea, but it's not going to replace the current proposals.

5 - Suggestions made about investigating / adopting the German solution of inverters that reduce their output to limit localised voltage spikes or overall high frequency issues, instead of the inverters being either 100% on, or 100% off. As virtually all inverters have this capability built in anyway it should be relatively simple to adopt this approach, which would then fully solve most of the concerns the DNOs have around localised over voltage issues. Ofgem seemed interested in this, but it's too late for it to make it into G83/2.

G83/2 is scheduled for publication at the end of this month, so it seems unlikely that anything other than minor tweaks are going to happen between now and then.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

"This procedure (single premises connection procedure) will not apply where an Installer plans or has already installed other SSEGs in..


isn't it only for the 28 days previoius and 28 forward... so you could do 3 installs in 57 days. It's not 'ever' from my reading.

that's what it has now been changed to AFTER the intervention of around 8 companies, mostly those involved on this thread.

It's far from perfect still, but is a hell of a lot better than the situation would otherwise have been.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

5 - Suggestions made about investigating / adopting the German solution of inverters that reduce their output to limit localised voltage spikes or overall high frequency issues, instead of the inverters being either 100% on, or 100% off. As virtually all inverters have this capability built in anyway it should be relatively simple to adopt this approach, which would then fully solve most of the concerns the DNOs have around localised over voltage issues. Ofgem seemed interested in this, but it's too late for it to make it into G83/2.

From a technical viewpoint this may be simple - from a FIT perspective, this looks like a minefield.

The current FIT is based on how much is generated, not how much is actually fed into the grid. If the panels of a system are generating at 3KW but the inverter is limiting the output to 1KW due to local grid issues, then the FIT should be based on 3KW not 1KW, i.e. on existing installations any limiting should be done between the generation meter and the grid, not at the inverter. Otherwise I can see some nasty court cases against OFGEM/DECC that this was a retrospective change to the FIT contract or with solar installers for mis-selling for not taking this into accounts in their financial forecasts.

This could be introduced for new installations. However, it will make the financial projections even harder to produce, and could even further impact sales - how many would install solar knowing that there is a risk that payback period if one of their neighbours installed a generation facility which resulted in the inverter throttling the output!

Matthew
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

From a technical viewpoint this may be simple - from a FIT perspective, this looks like a minefield.

The current FIT is based on how much is generated, not how much is actually fed into the grid. If the panels of a system are generating at 3KW but the inverter is limiting the output to 1KW due to local grid issues, then the FIT should be based on 3KW not 1KW, i.e. on existing installations any limiting should be done between the generation meter and the grid, not at the inverter. Otherwise I can see some nasty court cases against OFGEM/DECC that this was a retrospective change to the FIT contract or with solar installers for mis-selling for not taking this into accounts in their financial forecasts.

This could be introduced for new installations. However, it will make the financial projections even harder to produce, and could even further impact sales - how many would install solar knowing that there is a risk that payback period if one of their neighbours installed a generation facility which resulted in the inverter throttling the output!

Matthew
I take your point, however if the alternative is for the system not to be allowed at all, or for only a smaller system to be allowed, I think this option is generally preferable.

Your suggestion on the point at which this should be applied is a complete technical non-starter IMO, and possibly a dangerous one at that. If throttled at the inverter, it uses the MPPT system of the inverter to throttle the output entirely safely by adjusting the voltage point it's drawing power from the panels at to a less efficient point. If throttled on the AC side of the inverter then the only method of throttling the system is via a heat dump or similar, which while technically possible, is going to add significantly to the costs and complexity of the systems, and lead to the potential for 2kW+ heat dumping for long periods in peak summer which is unlikely to be a desirable situation, and if mounted in the wrong place could pose a fire risk (I know of someone who's house burnt down due to a similar heat dump unit used in an offgrid system).

Possibly you could look at allowing the use of immersun / emma style load management as an alternative option, but the problem with these units would be that they're only capable of storing a certain volume of excess energy in the hot water tank before they stop working, at which point the full generation would be sent back to the grid. I'd therefore see them as being supplementary measures that we as installers could recommend to customers to minimise the levels of reduced output, rather than actually being an alternative method of safeguarding the grid in the way that the inverters can do. Apart from anything else, the inverters already have to be g83 compliant, whereas these units don't, and I don't see that it's going to be an advantage to have to pay the additional costs involved in getting them type tested.

I'd be very surprised in most cases if this led to more than a 1-2% reduction in output through the year, and it's a simple enough matter to factor such reductions into your calculations, especially if it's mitigated with the use of an Immersun. It's certainly worthwhile if it allows for a 4kW system to be installed instead of a 2kW system, or no system at all, or is an alternative to not being allowed to install for 28 days which means missing a FIT cut deadline.

Put simply though, if we're going to get anything close to the 20GWp of solar PV installations being discussed, then we will have to adopt these measures at some point to prevent severe localised grid problems, or there simply not being enough capacity on the grid to take that level of uncontrolled SSEG connection. It's far far better to implement this measure before it becomes a significant problem, as the more widespread the implementation of the measure, the less severe the restrictions need to be on each individual sseg.
 
Re: Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permissio

Yes, it did occur to me that a limiter after the generation meter wouldn't be a great idea, due to the need to dump the energy somewhere.

If the impact really is only 1-2% then there is unlikely to be an issue but if it is much higher it would have impact, and it would only need a few well reported cases of examples of higher limiting to further damage sales (even if these cases were abnormal).

I'd also be concerned that the DNOs would just use this as an excuse not to invest in the infrastructure needed to make the best use of micro-generation.

I do take your points the alternatives aren't great either.
 

Reply to Massive changes to G83 rules for solar PV installations needing advance permission in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock