Anyone go the BBB to hand - reg regarding mix and match

[westward10]

Ok, can you advise what tools should be used please?

Clamp meter, PPE and a hefty piece of wire

 

[Wilko]

But if the enclosure was bought as an empty enclosure would the same rules still apply, and for din rail enclosures designed to take circuit breakers and the like, what range of equipment is approved by the manufacturers to fit in their enclosures?

Excellent points as always!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Here’s the Regulation:
536.4.203 Integration of devices and components The relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series shall be applied to the integration of mechanical and electrical devices and components, e.g. circuit-breakers, control devices, busbars into an empty enclosure or existing low voltage assembly.
In low voltage assemblies to the BS EN 61439 series, e.g. consumer units, distribution boards, incorporated devices and components shall only be those declared suitable according to the assembly manufacturer’s instructions or literature.
NOTE 1: The use of individual components complying with their respective product standard(s) does not indicate their compatibility when installed with other components in a low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly.
NOTE 2: Incorporated components inside the assembly can be from different manufacturers. It is essential that all incorporated components should have had their compatibility for the final enclosed arrangements verified by the original manufacturer of the assembly and be assembled in accordance with their instructions e.g. the consumer unit, distribution board manufacturer. The original manufacturer is the organization that carried out the original design and the associated verification of the low voltage switchgear and controlgear assembly to the relevant part of the BS EN 61439 series. If an assembly deviates from its original manufacturer’s instructions, or includes components not included in the original verification, the person introducing the deviation becomes the original manufacturer with the corresponding obligations.

 

[westward10]

We got that in #11.

 

[davesparks]

Ok, can you advise what tools should be used please?

No, and I never suggested you should not use the tools you currently have.
I am just pointing out that we all need to be aware of the accuracy and tolerance of the test equipment we use.

loop impedance tests can have quite a high tolerance at low values.

 

[Ian1981]

No, and I never suggested you should not use the tools you currently have.
I am just pointing out that we all need to be aware of the accuracy and tolerance of the test equipment we use.

loop impedance tests can have quite a high tolerance at low values.

I always remember testing Zs at a block for students, new build our company did, using a kewtech kt64 my colleague recorded 0.00 ohms, block was about 30 meters away and the cable was 120mm2 4 core swa with separate 70mm cpc.
My megger 1552 recorded 0.04 ohms and at the main distribution panel a ZE of 0.01 ohms which rallied up with the DNO design figure.
So I do realise the tolerance levels of different manufacturers testing equipment.
Just an example of 2 meters with different outcomes.

 

[Ian1981]

No, and I never suggested you should not use the tools you currently have.
I am just pointing out that we all need to be aware of the accuracy and tolerance of the test equipment we use.

loop impedance tests can have quite a high tolerance at low values.

I always remember testing Zs at a block for students, new build our company did, using a kewtech kt64 my colleague recorded 0.00 ohms, block was about 30 meters away and the cable was 120mm2 4 core swa with separate 70mm cpc.
My megger 1552 recorded 0.05 ohms (zs)and at the main distribution panel a ZE of 0.01 ohms which tallied up with the DNO design figure.
So I do realise the tolerance levels of different manufacturers testing equipment.
Just an example of 2 mft meters with different outcomes at low values.
Again it’s as accurate as I could get with the equipment used.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I always remember testing Zs at a block for students, new build our company did, using a kewtech kt64 my colleague recorded 0.00 ohms, block was about 30 meters away and the cable was 120mm2 4 core swa with separate 70mm cpc.
My megger 1552 recorded 0.05 ohms (zs)and at the main distribution panel a ZE of 0.01 ohms which tallied up with the DNO design figure.
So I do realise the tolerance levels of different manufacturers testing equipment.
Just an example of 2 mft meters with different outcomes at low values.
Again it’s as accurate as I could get with the equipment used.

What was the measured PFC?

 

[Ian1981]

What was the measured PFC?

Where at the origin or the block?
Origin was about 46ka. Measured between line and neutral then doubled as the meter couldn’t read higher than 19ka between lines.
It was 3 years ago but something like that.
2x 400mm singles in parallel connecting from the ACB at the transformer and a 400mm earthing conductor

 

[GBDamo]

Right, regs is regs so I will not mix and match CU components.

The reasoning being from the pocket lining barstewards manufacturers is we haven't tested so we wont take responsibility for the installation being safe.

My question is, if you arrive at a CU with preexisting mixed components can you carry out works on it?

 

[Pete999]

Right, regs is regs so I will not mix and match CU components.

The reasoning being from the pocket lining barstewards manufacturers is we haven't tested so we wont take responsibility for the installation being safe.

My question is, if you arrive at a CU with preexisting mixed components can you carry out works on it?

Don't think it actually says that you can't mix devices, there are procedures to follow if you do need to mix and match.

 

[telectrix]

funny that. just quoted a job to fit a new shower. 1960'shager DB, no RCD, and the ptatt who fitted the existing shower ( 9.5kW wired in 10.0mm ) fitted a 50A Volex MCB on it. this was under 3 years ago, so apart from mixing devices, he'd completely ignored the fact that he should have fitted a RCBO.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Don't think it actually says that you can't mix devices, there are procedures to follow if you do need to mix and match.

The procedures are that the designer/installer becomes the manufacturer and has all the obligations that apply to a manufacturer.
So will have to have the CU type tested in accordance with BS EN 61439-3.

 

[GBDamo]

Don't think it actually says that you can't mix devices, there are procedures to follow if you do need to mix and match.

Yes it does, short of taking on design responsibilities for the enclosure and components. I can't believe there are that many sparks who are qualified and experienced enough to take that responsibility on.

 

[telectrix]

think what pete means is that if you get confirmation from,say, wylex, that hager MCBs can be mixed in a wylex board, you're good to go.

 

[GBDamo]

think what pete means is that if you get confirmation from,say, wylex, that hager MCBs can be mixed in a wylex board, you're good to go.

An even less likely scenario that the your average spark having a CE accredited testing facility in his garage.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This prohibition started in domestic installations with AMD3. CUs must comply with BS EN 61439-3.
This requirement prevents the use of DBs intended for non-domestic use and effectively prohibits mixing and matching, as the type testing would be invalidated.
All this new requirement does is extend the prohibition to non-domestic DBs.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

think what pete means is that if you get confirmation from,say, wylex, that hager MCBs can be mixed in a wylex board, you're good to go.

If you were to ask Hagar whether their MCBs could be used in a Wylex board, the answer would very likely be yes.

 

[Toneyz]

If you were to ask Hagar whether their MCBs could be used in a Wylex board, the answer would very likely be yes.

I don't think it would. Although the wholesaler would gladly sell them to you for it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I don't think it would. Although the wholesaler would gladly sell them to you for it.

Have asked this question of a manufacturer in the past.
Somewhere around 2003/4 I believe.
Think it was Proteus?