Flexible Conduit (N.Bundy job)

[davesparks]

containment was designed to house single insulated cable ?

twin and earth was designed with its own incorporated an outer sheath so to be ‘clipped direct’

so why are we bothering to contain twin and earth cable

???

Containment was/is designed to house cables, all types of cables, not just single insulated cables.

Why not put T&E in containment where there is a lot of it going the same way?

Lots of cables incorporate an outer sheath allowing clipped direct installation but are installed in or on containment regularly.
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The old house I grew up in was wired in the 50s with VIR and buckle clips

Which proves that cowboys were at large in the 50's just as much as they are today.
VIR was/is single insulated cable and should always have been inside conduit/trunking, clipping it direct was no more compliant then than singles clipped direct woukd be today.

The predecessors to modern T&E were suitable for clipped direct installation such as lead sheathed rubber insulated cable or TRS sheathed rubber insulated cable.

 

[pirate]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

 

[Pete999]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

Worse than the plastic jobbies imho.

 

[pirate]

Pete999, plastic jobbies are better than both buckle and Linian?
Or better than buckle?
Or better than Linian?
Why not use fire-proof clips everywhere, instead of those ugly plastic jobbies?
I'm not criticising your opinion, just curious and keen to hear others.

 

[davesparks]

Worse than the plastic jobbies imho.

Why? Just because they are new and therfore can't be as good as anything old? Or do you have another reason?

 

[UNG]

Might be considered neater. Could take up less space if properly thought out. Allows for future boarding of that garage ceiling.

It's not necessary, but might be something to discuss with a customer when quoting for a job. Some will be happy with clipped cables, but others might prefer paying more to place them out of sight.

Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?

I doubt it's quite so clear cut. Certainly an apprenticeship should provide more opportunities to learn a craft, but plenty of people time served tradespeople don't seem to care much for attention to detail. People will either have the inclination to do things to a decent standard or they wont. The rough electrical work I grew up around was installed long before faster routes were available into the trade.

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

 

[ipf]

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

It was nothing like as common as it is today, though.
As regards 'mates', their were occasional labourers who worked their way up.....and plenty I knew were good, in different sections of the trade, with their work and experience. I'm sure a hell of a lot of 'em would sail through today's requirements to be 'qualified'.
Just do a regs course and there you go....if you can read and write

 

[nicebutdim]

Which proves that cowboys were at large in the 50's just as much as they are today.
VIR was/is single insulated cable and should always have been inside conduit/trunking, clipping it direct was no more compliant then than singles clipped direct woukd be today.

The predecessors to modern T&E were suitable for clipped direct installation such as lead sheathed rubber insulated cable or TRS sheathed rubber insulated cable.

To be clear, the only cable that was accessible was in the roof space. I may be wrongly labelling it as VIR as it had an outer sheath over the insulation, but both layers were some form of rubber.

 

[UNG]

Just do a regs course and there you go....if you can read and write

I thought it was read and guess, multiple choice gives you a one in four chance of getting the right answer

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't consider myself as old-fashioned, but i do like to use buckle clips in certain situations, and the installation can look very neat-plus the clips won't melt like plastic ones in a fire. I also like the range of sizes, which caters for different sizes of cable.
My choice for clipped direct T&E would be Linian clips which are even less obtrusive than buckle clips, and drilling the holes is less of a stress on the substrate than hammering, if for example you are clipping to battens between joists/rafters where the battens flex near the mid-point. On plasterboard, a neat drilled hole and a Linian clip will provide a dent-free finish (compared with my rather poor hammer accuracy) and a firmer fix too, and on brick it is easier than hammering in a nail for the plastic clips and provides a neater finish, imho.

Those clips from Linian are interesting and a very simple, yet practical design. If they weren't so hugely expensive, compared to traditional clips, they'd probably be well on their way to leading the market.

 

[pirate]

Davesparks, I agree that new isn't always worse...or better...but I also accept that cost can be an issue too. If you have 1000 plastic clips in stock, and the cabling is not going in an area where premature failure is a problem, why buy new stuff that is (usually) more expensive...so pete has a point there maybe. if the tried and trusted does the job, go with it.
for me, I always look for new stuff, because i like it! Cost is not an issue for the work I do (within reason, obviously) so i like to try stuff that does the job, and does it faster, and more easily. I love Quickwire for lighting...it is so fast, it does the job, but it is much more expensive than other methods...however, if I have to return sometime to extend a circuit, I know I will be in and out very quickly, which is a bonus, and if the next guy doesn't like it/has never used it, then that's his problem, not mine...at least he has a decent start, with cables easily identified etc.
I do like buckle clips...there's something about them that just appeals to me, and i will happily use them where the circumstances dictate...same with Linian...I love the speed and simplicity, but I am not a professional, so I explore the market constantly just to find stuff that will do a proper job that will keep the client happy and safe. I have used D-Boxes, choc-bloc, din rail terminals, whatever...but I always feel that if you add convenience and a touch of professionalism, the client will benefit, and so will I.

 

[nicebutdim]

Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?

I've no idea, but going back to the OP it's likely that the customer in question wasn't asked about routing back to their CU.

I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

That I didn't know and some of the work I had in mind dates back to the 70s.

 

[pirate]

nicebutdim, I hear what you are saying...but in the overall scheme of cost is a tenner on a job really a problem? Given you might save the client an hour of labour...or is it save time AND charge the client. I'm sure that isn't what you were suggesting, naturally, but it's a balance.
It's the same with Quinetic...do the job in a hour, costs the client £30 more, but you are away quickly and putting an extra job in that day, so the profit is actually up.
A plumber, and I use the word loosely, I once employed, used plastic pipe throughout, but he bitched about the cost of the "inserts" or "pipe supports" at 1p each...I now have no confidence in the job he did because i worry that he didn't use them. If he had added a tenner to his bill to cover the cost, no problem...now I am faced with lifting 2 tiled floors to check and sort. It's not all about cost, it's about using what is right for the job, demonstrating that and standing by your work, knowing you used the right and best techniques and materials.
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Addendum: Nicebutdim, thanks for your like...I agree the Linian clips are quite expensive, but I replied prior to your response being visible to me! (I'm a bit slow!)
I just think cost is often secondary to speed and ease of installation.
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and thank you for your second "like" too!

 

[nicebutdim]

nicebutdim, I hear what you are saying...but in the overall scheme of cost is a tenner on a job really a problem? Given you might save the client an hour of labour...or is it save time AND charge the client. I'm sure that isn't what you were suggesting, naturally, but it's a balance.
It's the same with Quinetic...do the job in a hour, costs the client £30 more, but you are away quickly and putting an extra job in that day, so the profit is actually up.
A plumber, and I use the word loosely, I once employed, used plastic pipe throughout, but he bitched about the cost of the "inserts" or "pipe supports" at 1p each...I now have no confidence in the job he did because i worry that he didn't use them. If he had added a tenner to his bill to cover the cost, no problem...now I am faced with lifting 2 tiled floors to check and sort. It's not all about cost, it's about using what is right for the job, demonstrating that and standing by your work, knowing you used the right and best techniques and materials.

I agree with your thinking and broadly share it, but will most electricians? I have no idea - most likely some will and some wont.

You mentioned Quickwire junctions in an earlier post, which cost a couple of £ more than Hagar junctions or a Wagobox, but in other threads I remember several comments stating that Quickwire junctions were to expensive to consider. That and needing a tool to remove cables. Some people embrace change, some resist and others will look at what is the most practical option for each situation.

Linian are probably in a delicate situation and realise that pricing may be an issue. They're a small company and, even if using overseas manufacturers, may be at a stage where limited budgets dictate order sizes and therefore price. I'd like to see them do well and success may also lead to more competitive pricing. They have some interesting products.

 

[7029 dave]

I hate the word containment, but IMO full conduit and trunking systems were designed for singles, having said that I put MICC cables in trunking on a job because I was too lazy to go the surface route, and if anybody put t&e in a full conduit system I would laugh at them its too bloody rigid for starters, its designed for stranded cores.
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Is it not normal to discuss with the customer what they actually want including how visible cable runs will be routed?



I'm wondering how long you think quick routes into the trade have been around back when I started it wasn't uncommon for electrician's mates to be made up to electricians having done 10 - 15 years as a mate. The government skill centres "trained" electricians in six months back in the late 70's until they were privatised in the 90's. So it is not as new as you possibly think

I do not recall that, 6months to train just saying.

 

[ipf]

Today, on so many occasions, it's all about meeting regulations. If you're clipping a cable or installing a works lighting system, the standard of work isn't appreciated to the same extent, resulting in cheaper and inferior materials and labour, meeting the requirements according to regulation and H+S.
Sometimes, higher class work is required, which separates the wheat from the chaff. More and more, it's become the exception to the rule.
An example is a client who wants things top class, done correctly with everything spot on, will not tolerate anything in view be it in kitchens, gardens, swimming pools or whatever but is willing to pay for it.

Anything is possible.....but you wouldn't think so.
......and people are being taught to install to regulation standard only....not to that of a true, highly skilled trades person.
Although it's very important, it's not all about everything testing OK.

 

[Midwest]

You lot have been o lockdown too long. Get a life.

 

[davesparks]

I hate the word containment, but IMO full conduit and trunking systems were designed for singles,

The word containment used to annoy me too, but I guess I have just got used to it over the years.

Yes conduit and trunking were originally designed for singles many many years ago, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing they can, or should, be used for.

 

[7029 dave]

You lot have been o lockdown too long. Get a life.

I am going back Monday Noooooo and me trousers dont fit me. lol

 

[nicebutdim]

I've used the term containment repeatedly in this thread as it's the only suitable collective noun I could think of