Is this installation considered acceptable today? (1-ring including oven and everything else)

[littlespark]

I meant just a sly peek over the shoulder as you pass him a cup of tea, not CCTV surveillance.
You'll have to tell him he's being recorded.

If you would be so kind as to tell us the answers to these questions after he's been:-
1. Does electrician take the cover off the board?
2. Does he use a test kit or multi-function tester at all?
3. Does he leave within an hour?
We'll be able to say how competent (or lazy) the electrician is

Problem is, the LL doesn't have to act on the EICR unless there's some serious (dangerous) problems, and if he does, it could take months for any changes

 

[Dave OCD]

If there are two rings discovered inside the CU terminated into one MCB it may well be that DIY tampering has been at work since the EICR. BUT if only one is discovered the person who wrote up the EICR should be fired, I do wonder if there are a number of flats at the OPs location of the same size and layout and creative guesswork has been utilised rather than proper inspection and testing ?
If I tested a property with just a single ring final circuit and an electric oven was also on that circuit I'd definitely flag it up as a C3 - Improvement recommended.

 

[Iain Kay]

I meant just a sly peek over the shoulder as you pass him a cup of tea, not CCTV surveillance.
You'll have to tell him he's being recorded.

If you would be so kind as to tell us the answers to these questions after he's been:-
1. Does electrician take the cover off the board?
2. Does he use a test kit or multi-function tester at all?
3. Does he leave within an hour?
We'll be able to say how competent (or lazy) the electrician is

Problem is, the LL doesn't have to act on the EICR unless there's some serious (dangerous) problems, and if he does, it could take months for any changes

I would add that I didn't put this in place for this occasion!

The CU is in the hallway to the left of the entrance door hence its covered so well by existing CCTV covering the entrance.

I will advise the guy that he may be recorded and kept for 48 hours. My only thought was this could be handy to show you guys what is found inside the CU, but absolutely no intent to show the poor spark who's probably never had anything to do with this property.

(Don't think that would be OK to do anyway and I am registered with the ICO as a data controller for the CCTV system so I take my responsibilities there seriously.)

If the guy doesn't take the cover off the board I can say I'll be moving out...

If there are two rings discovered inside the CU terminated into one MCB it may well be that DIY tampering has been at work since the EICR. BUT if only one is discovered the person who wrote up the EICR should be fired, I do wonder if there are a number of flats at the OPs location of the same size and layout and creative guesswork has been utilised rather than proper inspection and testing ?
If I tested a property with just a single ring final circuit and an electric oven was also on that circuit I'd definitely flag it up as a C3 - Improvement recommended.

It does have the name of the person signing off on the EICR on the report so I could follow up further if needed once this has taken place.

I've scanned a copy of this before anyone requests seeing it tomorrow so that I definitely have a copy.

The only C3s listed are:

1. Smoke alarms wired in 3core flex earth wire used as live [Christ?! Thankfully its not T&E!]
2. Circuit chart not marked
3. Only partial RCD protection [Doesn't cover the half with lighting circuits and 16A radial]
4. 4.9 Correct identification of circuit details and protective devices (514.8.1; 514.9.1) is recommended for improvement
5. 4.10 Presence of RCD quarterly test notice at or near consumer unit/distribution board (514.12.2) is recommended for improvement
6. 4.11 Presence of non-standard (mixed) cable colour warning notice at or near consumer unit/distribution board (514.14) is recommended for improvement.
7. 4.18 RCD(s) provided for fault protection - includes RCBOs (411.4.9; 411.5.2; 531.2) is recommended for improvement.
8. 4.19 RCD(s) provided for additional protection - includes RCBOs (411.3.3; 415.1) is recommended for improvement
9. 5.12.3 For cables connected in walls at a depth of less than 50mm (522.6.202; 522.6.203) is recommended for improvement.
10. 5.12.4 For cables concealed in walls/partitions containing metal parts regardless of depth (522.6.203) is recommended for improvement.
11. 8.1 Additional protection for all low voltage (LV) circuits by RCD not exceeding 30mA (701.411.3.3) is recommended for improvement.

 

[Chris1234]

You’ll know if they’re not a good electrician, they’ll walk out when you tell them they’re being recorded!

Do you need to tell them? Your not a business.

 

[littlespark]

ref #83,
point 1,- is just unbelievable. Have you checked your detectors work? and if more than one, are they interconnected? All sound when one tested? What is the "replace by" date on them?

point 2,- Could have been done when the EICR was carried out.

point 3,- pointless. Not all circuits have to be RCD protected.

point 4,- See point 2

point 5,- Pure laziness. You get a sticker with every RCD in the box.

point 6,- Only needed if there are mixed colours in the installation.
(ok, I guess there is if the detectors are wired in flex!)

points 7 to 11 are just spouting off regulations as far as I can see to cover earlier points

 

[Deleted account]

If there are two rings discovered inside the CU terminated into one MCB it may well be that DIY tampering has been at work since the EICR. BUT if only one is discovered the person who wrote up the EICR should be fired, I do wonder if there are a number of flats at the OPs location of the same size and layout and creative guesswork has been utilised rather than proper inspection and testing ?
If I tested a property with just a single ring final circuit and an electric oven was also on that circuit I'd definitely flag it up as a C3 - Improvement recommended.

Dave OCD, I half agree in so far as I would flag it as an observation only with no code.

In EICR's I use the codes C1, C2, C3, FI as per guidance, but I also put in observations as no code.

Aluminium cables that have good test reads I put under observation only no code.
Re wire able fuse boards observation only no code.

There are some things I find that I personally don't like ,but I have no right to go against regs and code them, so I make a comment with an explanation with no code observation only.
I make it clear to customer than no action is required on these points and I am only highlighting issues I would personally advise to upgrade.

 

[Wilko]

You’ll know if they’re not a good electrician, they’ll walk out when you tell them they’re being recorded!

Do you need to tell them? Your not a business.

Hi - hopefully I am a thorough and competent person with the experience, training and skills to carry out a domestic report as required here. I would not proceed with work being recorded for forensic examination and judgement by persons unknown to me. Why would I?

 

[Wilko]

I would ask the Electrician who attends would they mind if I took some pictures of the board, for the purpose of understanding the installation and talking with the agent.

 

[Wilko]

If there are two rings discovered inside the CU terminated into one MCB it may well be that DIY tampering ...

Hi Dave - agree. My thought was someone's quick fix for RCD tripping. It would be interesting to get a pic

 

[Iain Kay]

So the electricians, two of, have been out this morning and arrived bang on 9am as arranged.

Arrived with a toolkit and a Fluke 1653.

Didn’t want any tea or coffee.

First thing I said on their coming into the door are there are two CCTV cameras pointing right at you here and here.

First thing they did was open up the CU with a screw driver and have a look at the cabling. No isolation and no dead test (obviously, it wasn’t dead).

They identified only one ring, 6mm2 on the next B32 to the shower and 10mm2 on the non-functional B40.

I said this went against the September 2017 EICR which I presented and they looked it over.

The guy who had opened the CU then commented this has not been done on this board.

There was talk about this being raised with the guy that did the testing.

They ran round with the Fluke doing some tests in a few sockets on the ring and then discussed my concerns that had brought this to light.

They advised me that my LA typically are happy with trainee sparks opening up the CU and running new lines in their experience, however, I asked for a quote for them to assist me running a radial to the PC setup and they quoted £120 for labour and testing. I have all materials there.

I want to double check the trunking factors but I think what I have should be fine.

So Murdoch it looks like you were on the money. EICR completely fabricated and probably the only legitimate concerns are that the installation wasn’t tested.

P.S. smoke alarms aren’t wired as Earth for live, at least not now, the earth is just snipped in the 3core and they’re not earthed. Live is brown and neutral blue though.

Edit: total visit time was around 40 minutes.

 

[DPG]

I'd forget the cctv observation -not many tradespeople are going to appreciate that even if they are good ones.

Just ask if you can take some photos. He/she shouldn't have a problem with that. And photos will be clearer than cctv footage anyway.

 

[DPG]

Just realised they've already been. Didn't see that post sorry.

 

[Octopus]

Do you need to tell them? Your not a business.

Yes. Entrapment is a crime

 

[Octopus]

Do you need to tell them? Your not a business.

Yes. Entrapment is a crime

 

[Octopus]

Re the smoke alarms .... You say the earth is snipped ...... All mains circuits need a continuous cpc from the board to the end of circuit.

How are they interlinked? This isn't an EICR matter btw.

 

[Iain Kay]

I'm guessing that the smoke alarms should be earthed, although they're plastic bodies into plastic shells so maybe double insulation is acceptable, I'm unsure of their model so can't say without looking into it further.

It looks like the bodies can be twisted and removed, so I'll see if I can at least get a model number to look into them further.

They're connected from a 6A MCB into a switched spur which is then connected on to the smoke alarms. Trunking runs from the output of the spur to each of the smoke alarms.

Testing them, they all go off. All of them except one displays a green LED when the MCB is on.

They are interlinked, takes a second or two for them to all start going so I wondered if it was perhaps a wireless signal interlinking them.

If the 3core has been reduced to two core, which seems to be the case, I'd imagine that they must be wirelessly interlinked to operate.

That may also explain the terrible WiFi signal in my house.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - pretty sure the alarms are 860mHz and only transmit when they've something to report, so they're unlikely to affect your WiFi. If you'd like to try it, turn off your CCTV (recorder and everything) and see if that improves the WiFi throughput .

 

[Iain Kay]

Hi - pretty sure the alarms are 860mHz and only transmit when they've something to report, so they're unlikely to affect your WiFi. If you'd like to try it, turn off your CCTV (recorder and everything) and see if that improves the WiFi throughput .

Good to know, so that signal is not going to be even close to WiFi - and longer range which makes sense for safety devices.

I found the WiFi to be dire even before the CCTV got added in, but it definitely adds strain to it!

The solution I came to was to put an AP in the lounge and an AP in the master bedroom, pretty much opposite ends of the house, and it works pretty well.

If I continue to have issue, may split the network for the CCTV and the rest, but I'm in the process of running 12x CAT6 to each room so the WiFi really is non critical for anything intensive by the time I'm done.

 

[static zap]

.... see if that improves the WiFi throughput .

Get an app on a smart phone to Sniff what channels are in use , (Also check performance
near PCs when on , -One of their cases may not be "Screened" effectively!)
..Re locating wifi router away from optical view of PCs/neighbours may help !

 

[telectrix]

i find that cleaning the valve pins in the computer helps..

 

[Dave OCD]

Didn’t want any tea or coffee.

Iain, they can't have been real electricians !!!!

 

[Octopus]

Good to know, so that signal is not going to be even close to WiFi - and longer range which makes sense for safety devices.

I found the WiFi to be dire even before the CCTV got added in, but it definitely adds strain to it!

The solution I came to was to put an AP in the lounge and an AP in the master bedroom, pretty much opposite ends of the house, and it works pretty well.

If I continue to have issue, may split the network for the CCTV and the rest, but I'm in the process of running 12x CAT6 to each room so the WiFi really is non critical for anything intensive by the time I'm done.

12 CAT5 points in every rooom - bit of an over kill ...

 

[Octopus]

Edit: total visit time was around 40 minutes.

Hum ......... still not long enough IMHO to really do a check on an installation / EICR

 

[Dave OCD]

Up to him how many he needs or wants, not really my thing network points.

 

[littlespark]

40 minutes is a bit quick... even though theres 2 of them, and the number of circuits in the CU is quite small.... they must be really experienced in doing EICR's that they can do them in such a quick time.

So its proved there is, and has always been only 1 ring final circuit here for all the sockets in the house.

So what is it with all the IT equipment? Either large scale pirate bluray copying going on or editing of some rather "specialist" films?

 

[DPG]

Bitcoin mining?

 

[Toneyz]

1 ring was the norm in the 70's all the houses on the estate where I live have one ring or did have in our case.

 

[Iain Kay]

In my view that is commercial scale use of a domestic supply "technicalities" aside, to put it another way it is not normal domestic use of a system designed for exclusively domestic use. If I were a landlord and the system was overloaded by your use I would be looking to you for reparations. The onus would be on you to rebutt the claim. But as has been stated it is highly unlikely you would overload the system anyway. Bear in mind there have been tenants before you and evidently there has not been a problem, if there is in your particular case it may be that you are using the system in a non normal way.

12 CAT5 points in every rooom - bit of an over kill ...

Cat6 man. Not a huge difference but it has that plastic down the middle which helps to separate the pairs achieving up to 10Gbps instead of up to 1Gbps on Cat5E, or longer runs at 1Gbps.

It also helps with interference when running a lot in close proximity, which I definitely am.



The reasoning behind so many ports per room (or at least master bedroom and lounge) is that I want every single device back to the central comms cupboard where I have two 24-port managed switches which I can set up VLANs (virtual networks) on and segregate things.

For example, all my VoIP phones are on one network but they can't speak to the PCs. The entertainment stuff (Xbox, Apple TV, etc) can speak to the PCs to stream, but PCs can't directly access them because they don't have to. Guests on WiFi can't communicate with the wired network. Etc.

I've also got specific colour patch leads for each thing, black for PCs, red for media, blue for PoE, etc.

Over the top in terms of set up and organisation but I like it.

 

[Iain Kay]

Bitcoin mining?

In the past I have. It's not profitable any more though unless you hope it's going to sky rocket in value and just hold it!

 

[Iain Kay]

40 minutes is a bit quick... even though theres 2 of them, and the number of circuits in the CU is quite small.... they must be really experienced in doing EICR's that they can do them in such a quick time.

So its proved there is, and has always been only 1 ring final circuit here for all the sockets in the house.

So what is it with all the IT equipment? Either large scale pirate bluray copying going on or editing of some rather "specialist" films?

Oh no, as far as I can ascertain they have not actually completed another EICR. I asked my LA if they're going to need to have this re-done.

I work in IT mostly doing network design, implementation and deployment; and software development, so I've got various operating systems and machine specifications here for testing.

I'm also quite interested in performance testing and for that you need to simulate high processor or graphics usage for long periods and try to tune around it.

I am also quite partial to security testing so firing up a lot of graphics cards to try and crack a password hash, which when running for hours or days on end can push 300-400W per graphics card. 1,500W PSUs getting pushed to 100% is not uncommon, however, that can actually toast the 3-pin sockets so I prefer to use up to 1,000W per PSU.

 

[Iain Kay]

I'd like to thank everybody here for all of your responses!

I really, really, do appreciate all of the time and effort you've taken out of your day to provide excellent information and advice.

Just FYI, I've discussed my set up with the electricians out today and I think the conclusion will be running a radial or two for my set up and they're fine with me providing the materials and running the circuit.

They may not let me terminate into the CU myself even with them present, will try my luck, but certainly I'll get some experience out of the design and installation of a proper circuit, albeit achieved with trunking.

Hopefully any further queries I have will be of a more technical nature with me demonstrating some knowledge and not just being a noob.

Thanks again.

 

[littlespark]

So no dodgy videos, then?

 

[Iain Kay]

So no dodgy videos, then?

Nowt you can't find on Google

Did once look at setting up a cam girl business with a friend of mine, but neither of our mrs' were having it!

 

[Toneyz]

Nowt you can't find on Google

Did once look at setting up a cam girl business with a friend of mine, but neither of our mrs' were having it!

The truth is coming out now dodgy dvd's

 

[Iain Kay]

The truth is coming out now dodgy dvd's

I don't even own a DVD burner or player nowadays to be honest.

Can just stream now and the selection is huge

 

[123]

Nowt you can't find on Google

Did once look at setting up a cam girl business with a friend of mine, but neither of our mrs' were having it!

Did you ask them to be performers?

 

[Iain Kay]

Did you ask them to be performers?

No lol. Maybe that was the issue...

 

[Gary K]

Nowt you can't find on Google

Did once look at setting up a cam girl business with a friend of mine, but neither of our mrs' were having it!

Perhaps why there is only mention of a daughter now!

 

[Iain Kay]

Nowt you can't find on Google

Did once look at setting up a cam girl business with a friend of mine, but neither of our mrs' were having it!

Perhaps why there is only mention of a daughter now!

Haha Gary, a lot of back story there. Would require many a pint.