NAPIT Certification Scheme nic/napit registered spark required for pv installations

[adensparky]

I am currently looking for electricians with either niceic or napit registration to carry out domestic pv installations across the South Yorkshire area. You will be working as part of a well established installation team carrying out one install per day six days a week. A van is provided as well as a fuel card and all materials so you will incur no costs whatsoever We have a backlog of work stretching over six months with the promise of two installations per day in the summer months. Previous domestic experience is essential but solar pv experience can be obtained on site.wages on price per install basis Excellent rates of pay for the right candidates and immediate starts available ring Aden on 07791947903 or Regards

 

[saint]

Wow, that sounds to good to be true!

 

[D Skelton]

What about Elecsa, BSI or Stroma registration? In fact, why do they need to be registered at all? Surely you want them to be qualified right? In which case their qualifications are what you need to be asking for, not registration to a corporate body?!

 

[Earthstore]

As I understand but maybe wrong, some corporate bodies cover more for PV than others, it is a little different from conventional electrical work.

 

[D Skelton]

The main contractor (the OP) will be registered with whoever he needs to be though won't he, why does the subcontractor need to be registered at all? Surely their level of qualification is more important?!

As I understand it the OP is looking for NICEIC/Napit because he somehow believes these to be A. Proof of cometence and B. The only scam bodies available to choose from.

 

[Earthstore]

Not really I guess is the best way I can put it, he may well be MCS accredited purely because he is good at paperwork, but he still needs a qualified electrician to install and issue a cert for the electrical work and if I remember right the bodies mentioned cover the spark to install panels under the competent persons scheme and the others do not.


It is a little like a builder getting a contract to build a house, he will still need the various qualified trades to be able to issue the certs, this can be in house or subbed out..

 

[Gavin A]

unfortunately that would also mean the spark was signing off the roof work for building regs, which I think makes them liable for that should the main company go bust.

 

[D Skelton]

You're right, he needs a qualified spark, but it is not up to them to be registered, it is up to the firm! He is the employer!

 

[D Skelton]

If a large electrical firm wanted to utilise me and my guys to carry out work, we would do it as subcontractors, we would certify our work, but we wouldn't notify anything, that is up to the main firm!

 

[Earthstore]

That is what happens under MCS but you need the part p cert to accompany the reams of paperwork, the spark does not notify...

 

[D Skelton]

Part P cert? There's no such thing. There's an EIC or a MEWC, either of which a spark will complete and hand over. Any notification is done by the main contractor and upon this the householder will receive a building regs compliance certificate.

At no point does the spark actually doing the work need to be registered, only the person/company doing the notifications does.

I go back to my original point. Why does the spark that the OP wants to hire need to be registered with a particular scam at all? He won't be doing any notifications if the OP runs a legitimate outfit.

 

[Earthstore]

MCS is a completely different kettle of fish from the norm, a never ending change of rules also.

The "cert" is handed over to the MCS registered company for whom the spark is subbing to, the MCS company does not need to be an electrician, strangely BC does not need to be notified either however there are some requirements that all systems should have but sadly many do not have it all, ie Structural callculations to confirm that the roof is strong enough to take the load...

 

[D Skelton]

Yes I know MCS is different, my point is though that if the OP already has plently of work then surely he must be registered with a scam. Also, the building regs compliance notice is for the home owner surely, not for the PV installation company??? Or do they need a copy to comply with their end of things?

 

[Earthstore]

You do not need building regs compliance notice for PV, as I said, strange..
As long as it is fitted by a competent person who is registered under a scam, as you put it

The OP may well have just subbed all the electrical work out, so no, they do not need to be registered under a scam, just mcs....

All of my information is from memory, i left the industry about 2 years back because of all the rotten politics, constant rule changing and cows poo that went with it all, so maybe some things have changed.....

 

[D Skelton]

As long as it is fitted by a competent person who is registered under a scam, as you put it

This is my point, who says that they have to be registered with a scam?! Competency is determined by qualifications and experience, not membership of a private club.

 

[Earthstore]

MCS says...
I agree with you thoughts, sadly that is not the PV industry, run from the top by rule makers that inforce nothing afterwards, that is why the industry got a bad name, with systems that do not work very well etc, there are some real good chaps on here though....

 

[D Skelton]

MCS says...

Find me a statutory regulation stating this and I'll happily eat humble pie!

 

[Earthstore]

NAPIT - Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS)

Think you may need a knife and fork, you may have to cut and paste, sorry..

 

[D Skelton]

That's all about MCS, not about a requirement in statute for a MCS registered company having to use a NICEIC or NAPIT registered person to carry out non-notifiable work?????

 

[Earthstore]

I am just trying to help answer your questins here, nothing more...

At no point did i say they had to use napit or Niceic, that was a request from the OP, what I did say is that they cover people under the competent persons scheme and not all "scams" do this.

Would you like cream or gravy with that pie?

 

[D Skelton]

So far I don't think I'll be eating it!

I want you to find me a statutory regulation that says something along the lines of:

"An MCS registered individual or company must enlist the services of an electrician registered with a competent persons scheme for completion of any electrical work even if it is non-notifyable"

 

[Earthstore]

Hmmm, I am feeling like this thread is being twisted somewhat so lets start again...

The OP asked for a spark that is registered with those two "scams", now, you made a comment about why those two only, I just tried to explain why, of course the AC side of things can be carried out by anyone who is suitably qualified, however, it then would make the whole installation very complex paperwork wise, which sadly is what the PV industry is all about.

May I ask, have you ever worked with PV?

 

[D Skelton]

Hmmm, I am feeling like this thread is being twisted somewhat so lets start again...

The OP asked for a spark that is registered with those two "scams", now, you made a comment about why those two only, I just tried to explain why, of course the AC side of things can be carried out by anyone who is suitably qualified, however, it then would make the whole installation very complex paperwork wise, which sadly is what the PV industry is all about.

May I ask, have you ever worked with PV?

No, I'm not twisting anything. Read my OP again

I said "why does it need to be NIC/Napit"... Then I said "actually, why does it need to be a scam scheme at all?".

Yes, I have worked with PV but a few years back and only twice. I am not a PV installer, I suppose I should make that clear.

 

[Earthstore]

Maybe my explination was not very good, so I will try again..

The reason why those two scams are chosen is it covers many points that are required by MCS so the installation complies and therefore eligible for FIT payment.

The installation can be completed in other ways but would be more complex and probably more expensive.

Hope that helps?

 

[JD6400]

I can not point you to the regulation , but I can assure you that when we went for our MCS in the early days ( We only stayed in it for the first year , as it had become an industry infested by sharks by then ! ( That statement does not include nearly every installer on this forum I must add .) ) , we were told by the assessor that it was a requirement for the sparks to at least hold certificates of competence on pv installations .

This was from the elecsa assessor that inspected my company originally and also by the niceic assessor that inspected another company that I personally helped out , to set them up .
Like I say this was in the early days when it was just kicking off , and it still looked like a plausible alternative for the future , before Westminster did the usual .
From what I could gather at the time though it was not uncommon for the assessor to just make the rules up as they went along , and I can honestly say that I experienced this personally on the elecsa assessment !
If you think part pish is a joke , I can only say that if it were ever to get to how MCS was and for all I know still is , their will be one less contracting firm in the market place here ! It was the biggest load of balls I have ever had to go through .

 

[D Skelton]

Nope, doesn't help at all

Sorry

 

[Gavin A]

Maybe my explination was not very good, so I will try again..

The reason why those two scams are chosen is it covers many points that are required by MCS so the installation complies and therefore eligible for FIT payment.

The installation can be completed in other ways but would be more complex and probably more expensive.

Hope that helps?

Mr Skelton's right though, there's no need for any spark being hired to personally be NAPIT or NIC registered, as the MCS certifeid company should themselves be registered with one or other of the various schemes, and the spark employed by them would then become registered via that company due to being their employee.

The spark being registered themselves would only apply if they were wanting to sub contract the work entirely including the part p notifications rather than employing the spark directly... something HMRC might not be too keen on given that it's clearly full time work not subbing.

 

[D Skelton]

Thanks Gavin, that was the only point I wanted to make

 

[Earthstore]

That was just the request from the OP.

Just for clarification though Gavin, does an MCS company have to be registered personally to any electrical trade body? Or can they sub it all out to someone that is?

 

[D Skelton]

That was just the request from the OP.

In which case it's a restraint of trade.

 

[Earthstore]

In which case it's a restraint of trade.

That would depends on the terms of the contract between the OP and whoever chooses to go for it. At the end of the day this thread was just about somebody offering some work with a couple of requirements that he wanted, something that somebody may be grateful of.

It is not for us to judge whether it is right or wrong is it?

 

[Gavin A]

That was just the request from the OP.

Just for clarification though Gavin, does an MCS company have to be registered personally to any electrical trade body? Or can they sub it all out to someone that is?

erm, you may be right, with the right sub contract arrangements in place they may not need to be registered themselves.

In which case we're back to my point of them notifying building control about the entire install for building regs purposes, which does include the roof work...

not something we've got involved with since 2010 or so.

 

[D Skelton]

It is not for us to judge whether it is right or wrong is it?

Yes, it is IMHO

There are plenty of decent contractors not registered with NIC/NAPIT. It is unfair practice born out of sheer ignorance and I find it disgusting!

 

[Earthstore]

erm, you may be right, with the right sub contract arrangements in place they may not need to be registered themselves.

In which case we're back to my point of them notifying building control about the entire install for building regs purposes, which does include the roof work...

not something we've got involved with since 2010 or so.

Not that I agree with the way MCS operate, but if the said sparky is coverered by the competant persons scheme and they can demonstrate that the roof is capable of taking all of the various loadings with calculations then BC will not need any notification.

Just to add, I personally went into great detail with my local BC about all of this, but have tried to make aware that the rules may well have changed.

 

[Earthstore]

Yes, it is IMHO

There are plenty of decent contractors not registered with NIC/NAPIT. It is unfair practice born out of sheer ignorance and I find it disgusting!

Oh, the PV Industry, I wasted 2 years of my life trying to work with all the sheer ignorance and every changing rules....
On the up side, there are quite a few good installs near me that are all performing very well and the customers are all happy, so I do gain something I suppose... Not as though that pays my bills though....

 

[D Skelton]

Oh, the PV Industry, I wasted 2 years of my life trying to work with all the sheer ignorance and every changing rules....
On the up side, there are quite a few good installs near me that are all performing very well and the customers are all happy, so I do gain something I suppose... Not as though that pays my bills though....

So digressing completely, what are you doing now you're out of PV work?

 

[Earthstore]

Not disagreeing with the OP, more the ridiculous industry that many good people and plenty of bad ones too try to earn a living...

As for me, I have a Horticultural Bussiness and a couple of other things in the pipeline too, just want a happy simple life really without all the do do....

 

[marc8]

Hi all
had my MCS inspection last month, i currently got into solar after working for a firm fitting immersun's to houses with PV, my first job was for the company after i completed course & applied for MCS through NICEIC.
company sold the job in october last year had inspection on my own job in December,
whilst undergoing inspection through NICEIC assessor for MCS solar, i asked if it was ok to subcontract work?
reply from accecssor came back with an email regarding the above, as from NOV 2013 new regs state that if you install solar pv for yourself & you are MCS that's fine.
if another company sells pv & they are not MCS but the installer is, the installer takes all responsibility for the whole job in the eyes of MCS.
the above also includes the selling of the project right through, this includes any misselling to the end user, that could be proved in the event of a complaint.
all paperwork for any project has to be in the company name of the MCS acceridited firm.
i have all this in an email from MCS assecssor i will find it & post it here.

 

[marc8]

hi all
this was what was sent to me from NICEIC assessor.
As Promised a summary of today’s visit. Today you asked about getting work through a third party, MCS001 issue 2.3 comes into effect on the 20-11-13 the main change to this document is clause 8
Which states a contract for the sale and installation of a system shall be entered into only between an MCS certified Company, which is certified for the technology type (s) in the contract, and a Customer.
Hope this helps

 

[Worcester]

hi all
this was what was sent to me from NICEIC assessor.
As Promised a summary of today’s visit. Today you asked about getting work through a third party, MCS001 issue 2.3 comes into effect on the 20-11-13 the main change to this document is clause 8
Which states a contract for the sale and installation of a system shall be entered into only between an MCS certified Company, which is certified for the technology type (s) in the contract, and a Customer.
Hope this helps

Yep but that's ridiculous, as in many new build commercial systems it will be a subcontract to a main contractor.

I understand what they are trying to do on the CONSUMER front, in the commercial world that's just plain ridiculous. - in fact we've got one 50kW job coming up next month that we quoted for back in August, on a new school, - the main contract was let with PV included, and us as the nominated subby.

I guess in this case our customer is the main contractor