Old fuse boxes and mineral cables from 60s, is a complete rewiring required?

[wtlh]

Hi all,

We are booking a EICR, but all the sparks we have spoken to won't be free until in two weeks time... I guess we will just have to wait.

I went onto the Dimplex website, and did a calculation, we will need a 2.55kW and a 1.7kW storage heaters in each of the rooms. Replacing the original hallway storage heaters with the 1.7kW ones, we are looking at a total peak consumption of 7650kW. Given 230V, that equites to total current of 33.26A.

Would a 30A fused cable support such a current?

Another option for us, I guess, if the old cables are sound (they are pvc insulated and does look in good conditions, no split, discolouration or burning marks), is then, to reconnect one of the hallway heater to the living room heater, which runs from its own 30A fused cable directly connected to the meter via its own fuse box. This would even out the distribution of usage on the two E7 lines coming out from the meter.

Does this idea sound reasonable?

 

[2na]

#3 is talking rubbish because mineral insulated cables are not used in a mains supply. At least not one that I've seen in 34 years in the trade. If MI cables are used in an installation, if they are done properly they will outlast just about anyone on this forum

If it is a flat they may well have used mineral insulated cables to supply it. It will be a sub main from the main intake on the bottom floor. Seen it hundreds of times in hove, it never has to be replaced because if untouched it will last forever.

Its a complete lie thats its non compliant, if it tests out fine, it is fine.

 

[trev]

If it is a flat they may well have used mineral insulated cables to supply it. It will be a sub main from the main intake on the bottom floor. Seen it hundreds of times in hove, it never has to be replaced because if untouched it will last forever.

Its a complete lie thats its non compliant, if it tests out fine, it is fine.

Key words there but it's always been from a switchfuse, so not the responsibility of the DNO. That was the point I was trying (badly) to make mate

 

[2na]

I've seen them coming from a meter room before, from a switchfuse but that's not the DNO supply so yeah I know what you're saying mate

I knew you did Trev, if you like mineral cable, I like you.

 

[trev]

I love MICC mate.

 

[2na]

So do I. I have recently installed a new zone for a fire alarm in one of my schools, and because it was only 6 detectors/call points, I did it in mineral with my apprentice so he could learn how to do it properly. I even showed him how to strip it with side cutters and by the end of the job, he was very good at it.

It seems to be an art form that is being lost by the current learners, and that to me is a real shame.

 

[trev]

I did a load of fire alarm work a few weeks back, first pyro ends I've made off in years. Took my time with the first couple then I realised I was back on the horse.
We did a very big granny farm so there was loads to do.

 

[2na]

It always takes the first pot to refresh your mind, and then its second nature. I would like to know why they haven't made pozi drive brass screws for outside when its being clipped though. They are the thing that takes the longest......

And please dont tell me they have, I stabbed my finger twice slipping off the screw head.....

 

[trev]

I've seen em mate but it's a bit irrelevant really anyway isn't it. The screws are fastened into a plastic plug!
Oh, forgot to mention. Because I knew this job was coming up I got a shiny new joistripper, £8 inc postage off fleabay

 

[telectrix]

we are looking at a total peak consumption of 7650KW

bloody hell. you running a foundry?

 

[wtlh]

we are looking at a total peak consumption of 7650KW

bloody hell. you running a foundry?

Sorry, a typo, 7650W. LoL

Anyway, here is an update:

I called the electrician (who suggested the rewire) asking him if he is still interested in doing a ECIR first (as other ones could not do it until one or two weeks time), but he just squarely refused, and said it is in his professional opinion that the flat needs a rewire, and he will not do any work on it and then certify it unless it is rewired, so on that note he cannot see a EICR worthwhile... So I thought, oh well, then so be it.

I had a few other quotes too, and incidentally, another apparently quite reputable local firm (they are also Trustmark registered and with quite a few good online references) came (with two electrician) and looked at the flat, and again said that since the wire has not been changed since the 60s that it will have to be rewired. This time they opened up a few lighting switches and noted there are no earth, and said that would mean a "failure" in the report, and I will be only allowed class 2 double insulated switches and lights.

They initially quoted a "couple hundred" for the EICR, because they need to come during the early hours to test the E7 circuit, unless I can convince the power company to switch on the E7 power supply for them in normal hours on the testing day.

They also quoted well over 4 grand for the rewire job, because they will need to put steel tubings into the ceiling cavity, and it will take over a week for the two of them to finish the job, the whole or at least part of the ceiling will probably have to come down, and the quote does not including making good and replastering mg_smile:. After I told them this is way way over my budget and I just wanted a EICR done first, they tried to convince me the EICR will be a waste of money, said they can get the rewiring done for over 3 grand (not including replastering), to come closer to my budget. After they were told that I have contracted another electrician to do the EICR for much less than what they were suggesting, they said that they won't have time to do the rewiring job after the EICR, as they only just happens to have two weeks time window now. I did not buy it. They then later gave me a call offering to do the EICR for the same price as the other electrician and will be able to do it tomorrow. Since I am pretty sure by now that they were just trying to convince me to pay for the full rewire, I cannot trust them to be that objective on the test report. Although time is good, as all other electricians won't have time until a couple of weeks after, I just cannot trust them enough.

So in the end, I ended up asking another electrician, whom I feel I can trust a lot better given the conversations I had with him during his initial visit to do the EICR, but I will have to wait two weeks. If it turns out that I do need a rewire, then I sincerely hope he will have the time to do it immediately, as we will have to move in quite soon.

 

[Octopus]

I still think an EICR is the way to go -as for an "unsatisfactory" because you don't have an earth on the lighting - could it be that the conduit is the earth?

Fingers crossed you'll update us as and when the report is done.

 

[wtlh]

I still think an EICR is the way to go -as for an "unsatisfactory" because you don't have an earth on the lighting - could it be that the conduit is the earth?

Fingers crossed you'll update us as and when the report is done.

I will certainly do. Fingers crossed.

If it is just the lighting circuit that does not have earth, then I guess we can live with that, as long as we only install class 2 lights and do not install new ceiling lights.

Strangely, when they opened up the switch board for the lights, I do see a thin white wire inside together with the black and red wires. I do not know what that white wire is, but they told me it isn't earth, and the circuit definitely isn't earthed. The consumer sockets does have bare earth wires in them, I was told.

 

[Octopus]

I will certainly do. Fingers crossed.

If it is just the lighting circuit that does not have earth, then I guess we can live with that, as long as we only install class 2 lights and do not install new ceiling lights.

Strangely, when they opened up the switch board for the lights, I do see a thin white wire inside together with the black and red wires. I do not know what that white wire is, but they told me it isn't earth, and the circuit definitely isn't earthed. The consumer sockets does have bare earth wires in them, I was told.

Did they get their testers out?

 

[trev]

Just get Murdoch to come and carry out the EICR, you can be sure he'll be thorough and objective and if he says you need to rewire I and many others on here would believe that.
You can then get rewiring quotes in the full knowledge that one is necessary.

 

[wtlh]

Did they get their testers out?

No, they just had a look.

 

[trev]

No, they just had a look.

Quality tradesmen then, If there's a conduit system in place it is perfectly feasible that it is being used as a cpc.

 

[wtlh]

Just get Murdoch to come and carry out the EICR, you can be sure he'll be thorough and objective and if he says you need to rewire I and many others on here would believe that.
You can then get rewiring quotes in the full knowledge that one is necessary.

I have already asked an electrician to come.

He spent a couple of hours with me in the flat on Saturday, opened up the sockets and consumer units etc, and explained to me on a lot of things, and why just by inspection he thinks it is good idea to get the EICR done, as all insulators are PVC and appear in good condition, and by the looks of things whatever work has been done previously was done in a proper way, and people who did the job definitely knew what they were doing.

He said that the mineral cable is one of the most expensive cable types one can get, and if installed properly it will outlast almost anything else, and that the only reason these are rarely used now is because they are expensive, and it is difficult to install, in agreement with the opinion on this forum.

He also said there is nothing wrong with the 60s wires in terms of product quality. And since this flat has been continuously occupied all this time, and previous people were happy to live in the flat without needing much modifications or repair work done to the circuits, there is a good chance that the wiring is still in good condition and it will continue to work, as long as any modifications to the circuits are done in a proper way. So only a detailed EICR can tell if there are any major work has to be done on the existing circuit.

Given those conversations, I felt that this guy is quite down to earth, and he also said that he had been in the trade for over 40 years. I guess it also helped that he once wired a flat in the same development complex. The only draw back is that he is kind of busy.

 

[Octopus]

I have already asked an electrician to come.

He spent a couple of hours with me in the flat on Saturday, opened up the sockets and consumer units etc, and explained to me on a lot of things, and why just by inspection he thinks it is good idea to get the EICR done, as all insulators are PVC and appear in good condition, and by the looks of things whatever work has been done previously was done in a proper way, and people who did the job definitely knew what they were doing.

He said that the mineral cable is one of the most expensive cable types one can get, and if installed properly it will outlast almost anything else, and that the only reason these are rarely used now is because they are expensive, and it is difficult to install, in agreement with the opinion on this forum.

He also said there is nothing wrong with the 60s wires in terms of product quality. And since this flat has been continuously occupied all this time, and previous people were happy to live in the flat without needing much modifications or repair work done to the circuits, there is a good chance that the wiring is still in good condition and it will continue to work, as long as any modifications to the circuits are done in a proper way. So only a detailed EICR can tell if there are any major work has to be done on the existing circuit.

Given those conversations, I felt that this guy is quite down to earth, and he also said that he had been in the trade for over 40 years. I guess it also helped that he once wired a flat in the same development complex. The only draw back is that he is kind of busy.

Which is generally a good thing. Sounds like you have found a good honest sparky too. I bet you're glad you came here for advice now!

 

[shanky887614]

Which is generally a good thing. Sounds like you have found a good honest sparky too. I bet you're glad you came here for advice now!

it is a good think you stuck to your guns and got a proper electrician to have a look.

if a proper electrician does an eicr then I bet all that would be needed to earth the lights is a 4" stub of cable from cobduit backbox to fitting