Suggestions of decent but not expensive Class 2 exterior wall lanterns?

[Dartlec]

Has anyone fitted a Class 2 exterior wall lantern recently that was good and not too expensive? Struggling to find any "drop" type in white.

The story:

Simple job for Friday afternoon I thought - swap two wall lanterns and add a new one. 50's Bungalow, but had consumer unit updated to a twin RCD one 5 years ago or so and the rear lights done by the same electrician. (Some of you will see where this is going).

Take the front lamp off which had seen better days, to discover that the earth is cut short in the flex - grumble but extend it and test with voltmeter - 100V or so to earth....grab the Megger to do a Zs and get no reading.

Decide against crawling over the well insulated loft to find a junction box, and suggest a Class 2 fitting rather than the cheap Wickes one the client has ready.

Go to replace the back ones, which were all nicely done with IP rated switches etc (though since covered by a roof). All nicely connected in twin and earth and flex with earth - and no Zs...

Finally take the consumer unit off to look and of course the lighting wiring leaving it is earthless... Though it is at least PVC and not nasty VIR.

Needless to say the CU changer hadn't put the relevant sticker on the board, or notified the client about the issue.

Fortunately all their switches are plastic, though they do have a couple of ceiling lights that look suspiciously metal.

I've since discovered how little relevant information most of the suppliers have as to whether their lights are Class 1 or 2. Even the 'specification' sheets often don't list it - this includes several of the electrical wholesalers, who should know better.

A few of the online lighting only companies do specify which are Class 2, but they tend to be either expensive or have nothing similar to what the client wanted.

The ones they had chosen were a simple black traditional lantern for the front, and I've managed to find an Eterna Lighting equivalent for a tenner, but I'm struggling to find anything in white that drops down like the Philips Robin ones they wanted at the rear. For once I'm actually looking for cheap plastic tat and can't find it! There are a few white half lanterns, but the one's I've found have PIRs which aren't needed. Seems like white fittings are currently out of fashion?

Anyone fitted one recently or can point to good sources for such things?

 

[mattg4321]

ASD or Ansell maybe?

 

[LewisM]

BELL Lighting make a decent one.

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks both, Looks like a couple of options in traditional lanterns in black, though still very few options in white to replace the Philips Robin range. I'll have to see what the client likes and hope he's not fussy.

 

[123]

Ansell Latina - it's also available in white. ALWL/WH.
Fumagalli do a more "traditional" looking one, also available in white here.

 

[Dartlec]

Ansell Latina - it's also available in white. ALWL/WH.
Fumagalli do a more "traditional" looking one, also available in white here.

Thanks - the Ansell one looks very promising. The customer definitely wants white, so he'll have to take what's available. I note that the selling site doesn't actually specify the Class though. Mostly obvious when it's plastic I know, but I wish more sites would actually specify it and let you filter by them.

 

[123]

Thanks - the Ansell one looks very promising. The customer definitely wants white, so he'll have to take what's available. I note that the selling site doesn't actually specify the Class though. Mostly obvious when it's plastic I know, but I wish more sites would actually specify it and let you filter by them.

Here's the data sheet from Ansell...Class 2

 

[davesparks]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet but just fitting class 2 fittings and carrying on, especially when you are adding an additional point is not the correct way to go about it.

I can see the argument for replacing a broken or damaged fitting with a new class 2 one, but there isn't really any excuse for making alterations to the circuit without making it compliant.

The lack of CPC needs to be fixed, as it stands it does not comply with BS7671, you cannot comply with the requirments for a double insulated installation in a domestic installation and a sticker on the CU does not change this.

 

[Dartlec]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet but just fitting class 2 fittings and carrying on, especially when you are adding an additional point is not the correct way to go about it.

I can see the argument for replacing a broken or damaged fitting with a new class 2 one, but there isn't really any excuse for making alterations to the circuit without making it compliant.

The lack of CPC needs to be fixed, as it stands it does not comply with BS7671, you cannot comply with the requirments for a double insulated installation in a domestic installation and a sticker on the CU does not change this.

It's a fair point to raise. The original job involved adding another light, although it was from the same switch and about 5 feet to the right of the existing one, which is under cover.

While I agree that it's not just a case of fitting Class 2 and forget, I obviously can't force the homeowner to upgrade their entire lighting circuit. Nor did I feel comfortable removing their only source of external lighting as the nights draw in.

I could refuse to touch the job, in which case they would likely get a handy man to do the work who wouldn't even understand the issue.

In this case, replacing the existing unearthed Class 1 fittings with Class 2 and making them aware of the issue and quoting to correct the issue longer term is the best option imo. I know I'm leaving the installation in a safer condition than when I arrived.

What I'm less sure of is whether an Electrical Danger Notification would be relevant in a circumstance like this.

The Best Practise Guide 1 has toughened up their wording quite a bit in the latest editions, but even then only states that the customer must be advised in writing of the risk, not specifically a EDN.

My plan was to note the issue on the Minor Works certificate that I will issue for the work, even though I am only replacing fittings - that way I'm covered should anything happen and they have something in writing.

 

[davesparks]

What I'm less sure of is whether an Electrical Danger Notification would be relevant in a circumstance like this.

The Best Practise Guide 1 has toughened up their wording quite a bit in the latest editions, but even then only states that the customer must be advised in writing of the risk, not specifically a EDN.

My plan was to note the issue on the Minor Works certificate that I will issue for the work, even though I am only replacing fittings - that way I'm covered should anything happen and they have something in writing.

An electrical danger notification has no basis in BS7671 or any other relevant regulations, it achieves nothing more than advising the customer in writing does, and possibly opens you up to accusations of using scare tactics to get extra work.

How can you issue a BS7671 certificate for work which does not comply with BS7671?

 

[Dartlec]

An electrical danger notification has no basis in BS7671 or any other relevant regulations, it achieves nothing more than advising the customer in writing does, and possibly opens you up to accusations of using scare tactics to get extra work.

That was my view, although the NICEIC and other schemes seem to recommend them in certain circumstances where there is no doubt about the danger.

How can you issue a BS7671 certificate for work which does not comply with BS7671?

By filling in the handily titled "Details of Departures from BS7671" that they provide. Presumably they wouldn't include that box if they didn't want the certificate used unless it 100% complies?

A MWC isn't something I'd normally do just for changing a fitting like for like, but in this case it's a convenient way to note something so I have a record as well as the customer.

Happy to hear other suggestions as to how to deal with the situation though....

 

[davesparks]

By filling in the handily titled "Details of Departures from BS7671" that they provide. Presumably they wouldn't include that box if they didn't want the certificate used unless it 100% complies?

As explained in the regulations departures are permitted where the departure offers equivalent or better protection than compliance would.
You are not permitted to declare any non-compliance you like as a departure.

 

[Dartlec]

As explained in the regulations departures are permitted where the departure offers equivalent or better protection than compliance would.
You are not permitted to declare any non-compliance you like as a departure.

Having read the guidance further I agree, it should go in the "Comments on existing installation" as suggested in section 10.9 of the ESF Best Practise Guide 1.

Their guidance is that, although not recommended, it is acceptable to install a consumer unit and issue a certificate where a lighting circuit has no CPC present, if any Class 1 fittings are replaced by Class 2 alternatives.

In this case, the MWC applies to the work I am doing, where an existing cable is in place and I am replacing some old (and badly corroded) Class 1 fittings with Class 2.

I'm comfortable with my decision given the circumstances I found, where the options are:

1) Refuse to do the work, and risk them getting a "handyman" to do it, while leaving the installation in a potentially unsafe condition (C2 in an EICR situation)
2) Disconnect the lights and leave them with no outdoor light unless they correct the cpc (that is getting close to extortion tactics and I'm not sure I have the legal right in any case)
3) Make the installation safer in the short term by fitting Class 2 fittings and explain the risks to them in writing, encouraging them to upgrade the installation.
4) ?