The use of plastic wall plugs for the 18th....

[Pete999]

Metal Domestic Consumer boards, make me nervous when taking the lid off with my hands.

Switch em off first is the answer sham.

 

[johnduffell]

Switch em off first is the answer sham.

How do you switch off when the isolator is usually inside the board?

 

[ipf]

How do you switch off when the isolator is usually inside the board?

Who,s going to first to come out with the ‘Nervous disposition switch’, I wonder

 

[westward10]

How do you switch off when the isolator is usually inside the board?

That is a joke, yes?

 

[westward10]

Metal Domestic Consumer boards, make me nervous when taking the lid off with my hands.

Why not try your feet.

 

[johnduffell]

That is a joke, yes?

Kind of, but the serious point is how can we have metal earthed containment where the protective devices are inside. Think about rcd protection on a TT system for the worst example. Relying only on the basic protection of insulation but no fault protection is not really ideal, but without an up front RCD that's what we would do.

 

[Midwest]

For example, if you have a house where the ceiling and roof joist are of the engineered "I"-beam type and you drill through these to run services, they are prone to failure even without a fire. Where the upright web is typically 6 or 8mm OSB, you can't expect this to have the fire-resistant qualities of a four by two. Yes, wood burns, but solid timbers in the old style will last longer before failing...and that's just the tip of the proverbial, imho.

Thats why everything has always been covered in plasterboard, even before such construction; even metal RSJ's have to be covered by it.

 

[the pict]

So plastic plugs no, but plastic trunking, conduit, fast fit boxes, etc etc etc are all ok, someone is having a good old ----ing laugh at us all, and all we do is bend over further and let the scam providers shaft us,maybe we should go back to the 4 inch nail bent over cables like in the good old days

 

[DPG]

So plastic plugs no, but plastic trunking, conduit, fast fit boxes, etc etc etc are all ok, someone is having a good old ****ing laugh at us all, and all we do is bend over further and let the scam providers shaft us,maybe we should go back to the 4 inch nail bent over cables like in the good old days

But plastic trunking is only OK if metal fastenings/clips are used.

 

[Cadgey123]

Year 2025

19th Edition- Mrs Smith wants a new double sockets added in her living room.

£500 installed.

Includes the pyro, gland, new fireproof metal sockets and clips.

 

[Wilko]

Sorry, but you forgot the new arc effen device, so that's £750

 

[Spoon]

So plastic plugs no, but plastic trunking, conduit, fast fit boxes, etc etc etc are all ok, someone is having a good old ****ing laugh at us all, and all we do is bend over further and let the scam providers shaft us,maybe we should go back to the 4 inch nail bent over cables like in the good old days

Plastic trunking will only melt in a fire. Same as other plastic products. Cables within the plastic trunking, if fitted to the ceiling for example, will fall out of the trunking. The copper in the wire will not melt at the temps they are talking about, where firefighters will be in the building, so these copper wires may cause "entanglement". Therefore you have to secure the wires and prevent them from dropping.

 

[the pict]

So as lo g as the fixing stays up everything else can dangle and sag, fooking crap and I can't believe some of you are buying into this "We are the borg prepare to be assimilated" for trays, baskets, metal trunk use metal expanding anchors simple

 

[DPG]

So as lo g as the fixing stays up everything else can dangle and sag, fooking crap and I can't believe some of you are buying into this "We are the borg prepare to be assimilated" for trays, baskets, metal trunk use metal expanding anchors simple

Over reacting slightly ?

 

[123]

I'm mainly domestic and small commercial works now. I don't see how this affects me at all?

If I do a shed, garage etc, the cables fall down the wall, no chance they will be in anyones way. Showers and smokies going from ground floor to attic it's a bit of MT2 stuck to the wall, without it the cable isn't in a danger to anyone it'll just hang there.

 

[Oldschool]

Do any of you old geezers out there remember ALEX plugs in the 70's. They were an aluminium rawlplug an always gave you a solid fixing - much better than the plastic ones. Perhaps they are the solution to this problem.

 

[Ian1981]

I'm mainly domestic and small commercial works now. I don't see how this affects me at all?

If I do a shed, garage etc, the cables fall down the wall, no chance they will be in anyones way. Showers and smokies going from ground floor to attic it's a bit of MT2 stuck to the wall, without it the cable isn't in a danger to anyone it'll just hang there.

The new regulation doesn’t make any exceptions be it a single cable incased in trunking on a wall or for bundles of cables fixed high level to a ceiling,it simply states ALL wiring in the installation shall be secured against premature collapse so it will affect all installations.

 

[123]

The new regulation doesn’t make any exceptions be it a single cable incased in trunking on a wall or for bundles of cables fixed high level to a ceiling,it simply states ALL wiring in the installation shall be secured against premature collapse so it will affect all installations in all locations of installation.

That's not what I meant. I should have made it clearer.
If I use surface trunking in a house it's either along a skirting, in the hot press, or from floor to ceiling to go between floors. The commercial stuff in my area isn't much different, and anything bigger I doubt I'd be using PVC conduit or trunking.

 

[Oldschool]

More on ally plugs - they still make them. Seems they are about 4 times the price of plastic. See more here : UCAN | Products - http://www.ucanfast.com/products/details.php?category=Mechanical+Anchors&c=6&subcategory=+Light+Duty+Anchors&sc=181&productid=112

 

[Strima]

As usual we will comply as we know and abide by the regulations. However other trades won’t so Dave the data bloke or Steve the Sky engineer won’t give a ---- and still just chuck it them in...

 

[Marvo]

I can see these making a comeback, they should be rated to 327.5 °C

 

[ipf]

As usual we will comply as we know and abide by the regulations. However other trades won’t so Dave the data bloke or Steve the Sky engineer won’t give a **** and still just chuck it them in...

...and then there are the diy Dick's and cowboy **** pretenders in our own trade.

 

[Rpa07]

I can see these making a comeback, they should be rated to 327.5 °C

View attachment 43292

That’s a lead lug on that which would melt over the kettle put on to make the tea! Nice fixing though, used to use them for BT cables.

 

[EalingBadger]

Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?

Surely the point is that falling wiring does not merely impede one's progress in the same way as other falling stuff (such as suspended ceilings) but also has the interesting additional potential ('scuse pun) to administer a seriously painful and possibly life threatening jolt at the same time?

 

[snowhead]

Do any of you old geezers out there remember ALEX plugs in the 70's. They were an aluminium rawlplug an always gave you a solid fixing - much better than the plastic ones. Perhaps they are the solution to this problem.

Yes I remember those, make that 60's and 70's.
When I started it was with the then GPO, (Electrical) they wouldn't allow anything else, certainly not those new fangled plastic things.

I can also remember using the Rawlplug fibre compound that you used to dampen and push into larger / oversized holes then screw into it. Used that at home before I started work and had access to Alex plugs.
I'm sure that must have had asbestos in it.
Just Googled , yes it was white asbestos, lovely I used to chew that to get it wet.

 

[netblindpaul]

Chewing asbestos is quite safe, it only causes damage when finres are inhaled.

 

[snowhead]

Chewing asbestos is quite safe, it only causes damage when finres are inhaled.

You tell the kids that nowadays, they won't have it..

 

[Pete999]

More on ally plugs - they still make them. Seems they are about 4 times the price of plastic. See more here : UCAN | Products - http://www.ucanfast.com/products/details.php?category=Mechanical+Anchors&c=6&subcategory=+Light+Duty+Anchors&sc=181&productid=112

Ally melts don't it?

 

[Pete999]

More on ally plugs - they still make them. Seems they are about 4 times the price of plastic. See more here : UCAN | Products - http://www.ucanfast.com/products/details.php?category=Mechanical+Anchors&c=6&subcategory=+Light+Duty+Anchors&sc=181&productid=112

Ally melts don't it?

 

[telectrix]

at about 660 C.

 

[Richard Burns]

Ally melts don't it?

at about 660 C.

Cant use aluminium then as it might be a fire 2 and the firefighters will be walking around in a 690°C temperature and may get molten aluminium dripped on them as well as being entangled in cables.

 

[snowhead]

Cant use aluminium then as it might be a fire 2 and the firefighters will be walking around in a 690°C temperature and may get molten aluminium dripped on them as well as being entangled in cables.

Now you're being Silly.
They won't be walking around in that temperature, they'll be running..

 

[Dillb]

Now you're being Silly.
They won't be walking around in that temperature, they'll be running..

Why will they be running? To keep warm!

 

[Selfmade]

I'm wondering about another couple of scenarios that don't seem to have been covered here:

- Cables in loft or basements that are only entered for building maintenance - are these spaces included in 'metal fixings must be used everywhere'?

- Cables fixed to exposed wood (e.g. skirting board, exposed ceiling timbers, or in a garden shed). Everyone seems to assume all walls are made of solid concrete which is actually rather rare in domestic settings. I have used metal clips fixed to wood and believe the wood would take longer to burn than a plastic, but I don't know how much longer or how the regs would apply to this.

 

[sham]

I forgot is it a code 2 or 3 if you doing an conditional report and there are no metal fire rated clips supporting the cables.

 

[sham]

I'm wondering about another couple of scenarios that don't seem to have been covered here:

- Cables in loft or basements that are only entered for building maintenance - are these spaces included in 'metal fixings must be used everywhere'?

- Cables fixed to exposed wood (e.g. skirting board, exposed ceiling timbers, or in a garden shed). Everyone seems to assume all walls are made of solid concrete which is actually rather rare in domestic settings. I have used metal clips fixed to wood and believe the wood would take longer to burn than a plastic, but I don't know how much longer or how the regs would apply to this.

This is why we have amendments, so they can make new book for more money. Blue, green, red, yellow etc. lol.

 

[Spoon]

Cables in loft or basements that are only entered for building maintenance - are these spaces included in 'metal fixings must be used everywhere'?

I'd go with Yes, as I presume that firefighters would have to search every room, in case of a fire.
"Sorry about the body in the basement, but as it was a maintenance area I thought there would be no one there, so we didn't search it." would not go down well..

 

[Midwest]

I'm wondering about another couple of scenarios that don't seem to have been covered here:

- Cables in loft or basements that are only entered for building maintenance - are these spaces included in 'metal fixings must be used everywhere'?

- Cables fixed to exposed wood (e.g. skirting board, exposed ceiling timbers, or in a garden shed). Everyone seems to assume all walls are made of solid concrete which is actually rather rare in domestic settings. I have used metal clips fixed to wood and believe the wood would take longer to burn than a plastic, but I don't know how much longer or how the regs would apply to this.

If the cables can't fall down because their failed, how can someone (or a fireman) become entrapped in them, thereby falling (forgive the pun) into the interpretation of said definition?

Like, hows a cable clipped to a skirting, gonna entrap a fireman?

 

[sparksburnout]

What about when the AMD3 board is screwed to a couple of wooden battens then? Do the battens have to have fireproof fixings?

 

[telectrix]

simple solution.... issue all firefighters with a pair of these:

 

[netblindpaul]

simple solution.... issue all firefighters with a pair of these:

They already have, and modified the BA & helmets to minimise this risk, the Coroner came down hard on the Fire & Rescue services & the electrical industry.

 

[Selfmade]

I'd go with Yes, as I presume that firefighters would have to search every room, in case of a fire.
"Sorry about the body in the basement, but as it was a maintenance area I thought there would be no one there, so we didn't search it." would not go down well..

Interesting point, but I wonder whether in practice firefighters crawl through basements so small they cannot bend their knees, in burning buildings, on the one-in-a-million chance there is someone in there. If not, then where is the cut-off?

 

[Selfmade]

I'd go with Yes, as I presume that firefighters would have to search every room, in case of a fire.
"Sorry about the body in the basement, but as it was a maintenance area I thought there would be no one there, so we didn't search it." would not go down well..

Interesting point, but I wonder whether in practice firefighters crawl through basements so small they cannot bend their knees, in burning buildings, on the one-in-a-million chance there is someone in

If the cables can't fall down because their failed, how can someone (or a fireman) become entrapped in them, thereby falling (forgive the pun) into the interpretation of said definition?

Like, hows a cable clipped to a skirting, gonna entrap a fireman?

OK bad example on my part, maybe a cable clipped to a dado rail (if anyone's ever done that)? That said, I don't think cables clipped to skirtings are excluded, unless the cables are actually supported by the floor. Perhaps a cable falling away from a skirting could at least become a trip hazard?

 

[Selfmade]

Here are the clips and raw plugs I have been using in escape routes - looks like I'll be getting through more of these:

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/d-lin...ps-for-2-core-1-5mm-fp-cable-pack-of-12/90366

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/prysmian-ap9-white-clips-pack-of-100/33690

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/rawlplug-metal-wall-plugs-6-x-32mm-50-pack/9584p

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/fischer-self-drill-plasterboard-fixings-metal-35mm-100-pack/47347

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/rawlplug-hollow-wall-anchors-m5-x-37mm-20-pack/99201

Hopefully this will be useful for someone. I'm not getting commission for these links (boo). Doubtless other manufacturers and suppliers will have similar offerings.

 

[Midwest]

Thats all quite old hat, used for different reasons nothing to do with premature failure due to fire.

 

[Richard Burns]

I think the self drive plasterboard fixings are made from an alloy so they may well melt too early as well. Though I do not know the alloy used.
The metal wall plugs are probably the simplest but would have really too great a sideways force for weak substrates and could readily shatter the wall.
Presumably someone will come up with a product like the D line clips, vastly overpriced and annoying.

 

[Selfmade]

I think the self drive plasterboard fixings are made from an alloy so they may well melt too early as well. Though I do not know the alloy used.
The metal wall plugs are probably the simplest but would have really too great a sideways force for weak substrates and could readily shatter the wall.
Presumably someone will come up with a product like the D line clips, vastly overpriced and annoying.

Interesting. Perhaps we need some clarification about which metals are suitable and how we identify them.

It's also occurred to me that perhaps fixing cables to plasterboard is not acceptable from a fire resistance point of view. The regs already say a light must be fixed to the joists or similar to avoid the plasterboard giving way in the event of a fire burning off the paper - perhaps the same should go for cables, but I don't remember seeing this on my initial look at the changed regs. Roll on amendment 1 :-D

 

[davesparks]

The regs already say a light must be fixed to the joists or similar to avoid the plasterboard giving way in the event of a fire burning off the paper -

Do they? Which regulation is that?

 

[sunray]

Do any of you old geezers out there remember ALEX plugs in the 70's. They were an aluminium rawlplug an always gave you a solid fixing - much better than the plastic ones. Perhaps they are the solution to this problem.

Yes I most certainly do and stupidly made a mistake when I ordered the last batch. I wrote 1000 on the order against each of 4 sizes along with various sizes of screws and no one questioned the quantity. The delivery was made, the invoice sent and account paid, all 3 being done in their usual efficient manner. Imagine my surprise when I next went to the shelf and found 28 boxes containing 144 boxes each of 200 alex plugs on the floor where I expected to see 20 small boxes on the shelf. Weirdly there were only 5 boxes of each size of screw delivered.
Now the question of closing down the branch cropped up a short while later and by the stroke of a pen, guys with clipboards decided there was no stock worth the cost of moving to another branch and I got the job to arrange skips and disposal. 41 years later I probably still have 25% of them as I'm slowing down towards retirement.

 

[Selfmade]

Do they? Which regulation is that?

Just checked and they don't . What they do say (to paraphrase and abbreviate) is that adequate means to fix shall be provided, capable of supporting not less that 5kg, and installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions. I'd question the ability of plasterboard to support 5kG with any form of raw plug (perhaps others can correct me), and I know at least some manufacturers' instructions specify fixing to joists or other timber rather than plasterboard. Where I have read that this is to avoid the plasterboard giving way in the event of a fire burning off the paper, I couldn't tell you.