What is a Domestic Installer ?

D

Dave Buchan

Hi guys,

Here's an interesting one for you, if you look at the attachment on this post from the IET they define a domestic installer as " not an electrician "

If you go to the niceic website and click the 'FIND ELECTRICIAN' tab and select 'ALL ELECTRICAL WORK' it will display various domestic installers and approved contractors in your local area.

So is the domestic installer an ELECTRICIAN?

According to the people who write the national safety standards apparently this is not the case.......

Yet the guys who regulate them for crucial safety reasons seem to know otherwise.....

So who is right?

The IET

or

NICEIC
 

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I AM A 4 WEEK WONDER...............and have put many a time served spar right on these forums because I understand what I do. I have 25 years experiance in electro but mainly mechanical engineering, I understand weaponary, sighting systems, missiles, not to mention metalsmithing and vehicle recovery, so in every aspect I am multi diciplined. What I do is focus on what I am good at and domestic and light commercial electrics is where I sit. Unfortunately every trade is "dumbing" down and the only ones that are not are for example carpenters as they have to master a product that has not changed since man first propped two sticks together to build something!!

I did the 4 week batch of courses only to get a formal qual for what I already knew as that is what was demanded of the industry. As to workmanship......I agree with the comments here on both sides, but its got ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with training but the CORRECT APPLICATION of knowledge. I know guys who are absolute geniuses at their trade, but give them a tool and the job goes sour, Ive also had guys who struggled to get their name right on an exam paper but had natural tallent on their given trade.
It takes all sorts, and the customer is only happy with the job done right, safe and tidy and thats what I give them, Oh and with my 4 week course aside, I can work on 3 phase, do power factor calcs and work on motors, not to mention MENTOR 3 TIME SERVED SPARKS on DC electrics on the Solar PV Course.

Quals will get you so far, personal pride and ambition will take you much further............
 
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This is getting bitter and twisted as always, can we agree that this forum is here to help each other and yes apprentices are better than 7 week wonders I have done both having done 3yrs, then done nothing in the electrical trades, many years later night school,part p ,17th edition etc I only do domestics ,but I still think of myself as skilled,I dont go around slagging off industrial / commercial sparks (as a rule only when they moan about us) as they are more skilled so can we live and let live and enjoy this great forum and all the top guys on this site Thanks for your expertise and help
 
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Well I hope this isn't a bitter and twisted thread ??? I was enjoying all the banter !!! Its what we Sparkies excel at.
Now go and make me a nice cup of tea 5 week wonder, and no urine in it, I can take the P without additional help, lol.
Weaponary sighting systems !!! We have Iron man on board now !!!
 
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Graeme Harrold said:
I AM A 4 WEEK WONDER...............

I agree with the comments here on both sides, but its got ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with training but the CORRECT APPLICATION of knowledge.
Click to expand...

What he hell are you talking about ??? ......So how do you apply the correct application of knowledge, ...without first gaining the knowledge, in the first place ...ie ''Training''??!!!!!


Now if you think that 4 weeks of questionable training in being an electrician, can give a person without any prior electrical knowledge, in both theory, and experience, will enable him to have any idea in the correct application of anything electrical, ..... Your very much mistaken.

Oh, and unless those time served electricians were industrially trained, i can well believe, their lack of knowledge of DC electrics, as they would never have been involved with anything on the DC side of things...
 
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I admire time served electricians, you are in fact what I want to become. Yes I've taken the short course but I read so many threads on here and I think damn, I wish I knew just a fraction of what some of the guys know.

I'd love the opportunity to work alongside some of you to prove that I'm not some good for nothing numpty that doesn't know one end of the screwdriver from the other. The problem is, the work either isn't there or too many of you wouldn't even give me a chance just because of the "5MW" title that I carry on my shoulders. :( I believe that with your professional guidance I could make it one day as a proper spark:D

The concern I have is that if some of you guys don't change your opinions then more and more DI's will come straight out of these workshops and straight into a newly formed companies working in peoples homes.

Changes need to be made for sure but in my opinion there should be a little give and take ;) :thumbsup
 
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focusphil said:
so let the house bashers bash and dont moan,you do your proper work !!!!
Click to expand...

Missing the point Phil.
I can do houses and "proper work", but thats not the point. Its about deskilling the trade and people coming in to the trade and being told that they are the real deal when all they can do is wire a house. Its the training companies at fault, then again they have to sell the dream.
 
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grimysparks80 said:
I agree. I am a house basher at the mo. I have plenty of domestic and light commercial experience and did 3 year apprenticeship, but would struggle in an industrial job.
One thing i would say tho is that its pretty difficult to find experience doing industrial work as companies advertising it always want experience in the first place.
I am a careful and concientous worker and if i ever got chance to work under supervision on industrial stuff i like to think I could pick it up pretty quickly. But i often have a look for these kind of jobs and dont believe id have a chance with my limited experience.
It makes me wonder who will do these jobs when all you fine gents finally retire. Real apprenticeships seem to be a thing of the past.
Click to expand...

You have my respect. Grimy realises that it has to be earnt, not a god given right.
 
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Graeme Harrold said:
I AM A 4 WEEK WONDER...............and have put many a time served spar right on these forums because I understand what I do. I have 25 years experiance in electro but mainly mechanical engineering, I understand weaponary, sighting systems, missiles, not to mention metalsmithing and vehicle recovery, so in every aspect I am multi diciplined. What I do is focus on what I am good at and domestic and light commercial electrics is where I sit. Unfortunately every trade is "dumbing" down and the only ones that are not are for example carpenters as they have to master a product that has not changed since man first propped two sticks together to build something!!

I did the 4 week batch of courses only to get a formal qual for what I already knew as that is what was demanded of the industry. As to workmanship......I agree with the comments here on both sides, but its got ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with training but the CORRECT APPLICATION of knowledge. I know guys who are absolute geniuses at their trade, but give them a tool and the job goes sour, Ive also had guys who struggled to get their name right on an exam paper but had natural tallent on their given trade.
It takes all sorts, and the customer is only happy with the job done right, safe and tidy and thats what I give them, Oh and with my 4 week course aside, I can work on 3 phase, do power factor calcs and work on motors, not to mention MENTOR 3 TIME SERVED SPARKS on DC electrics on the Solar PV Course.

Quals will get you so far, personal pride and ambition will take you much further............
Click to expand...

This man is not a DI. He is an engineer, hats off to you.
 
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All I am going to say is, I have done industrial installation and maintenance,commercial installation and domestic installation, with a short period labouring for my plasterer brother
icon7.png


I consider myself to be "a unit of labour"
If I didn't need the money,you could call me whatever you wanted to, as long as I didn't after get up tomorrow and stick another screwdriver in my hand.
I'll drink to that
:54:
 
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I think a new word has been invented. Domesticinstalleraphobic.

This argument is flawed on so many levels but ultimately boils down to this. In working life, not just the electrical industry, some people are good at what they do, and some people aren't. You may have lots of qualifications, you may not have many. This ultimately does not make you good or bad at your own job. How you do your job makes you good or bad.
 
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All joking aside lads, this is such a diverse trade.
There are so many levels of expertise and knowledge/experiance building that you can be in the game for umpteen years and will always be learning throughout.
Being a domestic sparks, is really about what your happy to do. If thats where your bread and butter lies then so be it. If youv'e been in the field long enough to gain experiance and with a competant working knowledge of how to do the job right, then your a domestic electrician by definition.
Moving on from there, commercial industrial work is far more complex for a variety of reasons, and any good electrician domestic or otherwise would fully appreciate this. There was a time when experiance and knowledge went hand in hand and stood for something. We all have to accept that some sparks have more experiance and knowledge than others. Surely that applies to all walks of life.
Lets not beat ourselves up about it.
At 58 I'm still learning the trade. And then again, I have my moments when I can pass on my knowledge to others.
If anyone thinks they have learnt all there is to know then think again. Sometimes we can teach and sometimes we can learn, doing it together, and helping each other out on sites just like this is really what its all about.
 
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it annoys me that people think they can train to be a spark in 5 weeks, and think they can charge the same. like anything it takes time to develop a skill, whatever it is.

same in this country for martial arts, seems anyone can get a black belt these days, but can they really fight?

sure you might be quick and learn the idea quickly, but to build the speed and get it to come naturally to you takes time, even sparkys who have been doing the job 20 years can learn something new, so people going to a trade centre to get a certificate that makes them think they are entitled to £160 a day does annoy me. I've seen it, and these blokes although not completely clueless are charging clients large sums of money for the privilege of letting them train in their houses. I think everyone should do their training even if they are late to game.
 
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Looks like the authorities are raising the standard with the requirements for a NVQ 3. This will take time to raise the standard as so many of your hated 5 dayers are in the trade already and now have grandfather rights with the schemes. What I would like to ask the so called "so many day wonders"...if any of you have good business brains can you share some tips.
 
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Well this thread has certainly been an interesting read. I am currently not a DI but have been considering this career change. As others on this thread I have a degree in electronics and over 20years experience in practical and design etc, I believe I am competent and have a good understanding of electrical theory.
So, after reading the previous comments I'm thinking whether I should even consider being a DI? granted it will take time to gain the practical experience but if you have the formal qualifications does that not put you on the right path atleast?
I would happily stick to domestic work so I don't see why I have to be aiming for commercial work so I can be a fully fledged electrician?
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
The amount of threads regarding this stevie.......i have said it before and i will say it again-As long as the cash for these "training centres" keeps rollin in....they`l keep churnin em out. The ONLY way in my opinion is for training centres to be better regulated as to the standard of those who pass their courses and thus enter industry and to the suitability of those who wish to undertake certain courses they offer (2391-10 2391-20) etc.......
Click to expand...

they do better vetting, but really, in the end the problem is that people are willing to pay these people to come into their homes. if theres work someone will grab it, under experienced or not. in the end i wouldn't be sure to what the solution is. but i've seen it, a bloke who's only had a bit of practice trying to take on a job at a slow pace, making mistakes and making the customer pay him day rate. if people don't mind being screwed then it will carry on. there also seems to be a myth that if they get a proper electrician he'll end up charging more than the new guy, when infact an experienced bloke will end up doing it much faster, and will end up costing less because he isn't slow. So in the end i think the problem is the consumer.

Anyway if an electronic engineer is thinking of changing trades, you're theory might be very good, but theres a skill in fault finding, getting your routes and all that like any trade that takes a long time to get a pace. nothings stopping you having a go at it, but having to be on the tools might find you at a push for time. i think everyone should do their training for these reasons. i'm sure this isn't the only business thats suffering because people think it won't take long to train up in.
 
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electromonkey said:
I think a new word has been invented. Domesticinstalleraphobic.

This argument is flawed on so many levels but ultimately boils down to this. In working life, not just the electrical industry, some people are good at what they do, and some people aren't. You may have lots of qualifications, you may not have many. This ultimately does not make you good or bad at your own job. How you do your job makes you good or bad.
Click to expand...

Couldnt agree more, kind of what I said earlier without rambling.

Only the good survive irrespective on how they trained. Unfortunately the industry is geared towards the apprentice start, so only the industry is to blame. I tried to go through the night school route, but the local colleges were not interested. I am fortunate, as my background gave me an enormous boost. I do agree a 5 week wonder who has been stacking shelves in Tesco all his life will not be anywhere as good as someone who as changed trade streams. I knew from the outset it would be harder, and thats what drives me on. Im lucky in having a natural ability with hands on work, plus I have the added advantage of being of an above average intelligence which is why I breezed through my HND, DEI, 17th edn and 2391.

Fault finding is down to logic and confidence. I have been called out to help a time served spark. he knew what he was doing, he was well qualified, he just lacked confidence to believe in his own findings.

Moral.....THOSE WHO CAN DO! I stay within my limit of comfort, I leave the industrial and large commercial where it belongs and I concentrate on doing what I do well.
 
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onetrack said:
Well this thread has certainly been an interesting read. I am currently not a DI but have been considering this career change. As others on this thread I have a degree in electronics and over 20years experience in practical and design etc, I believe I am competent and have a good understanding of electrical theory.
So, after reading the previous comments I'm thinking whether I should even consider being a DI? granted it will take time to gain the practical experience but if you have the formal qualifications does that not put you on the right path atleast?
I would happily stick to domestic work so I don't see why I have to be aiming for commercial work so I can be a fully fledged electrician?
Click to expand...

As long as you realise that you are on a learning curve from day 1 of being in someones property then fine.
Your degree in electronics, should not be considered a qualification in competance to complete a house rewire, it's not.
Theory do go hand in hand with practical experiance, its the sum of the parts that make you competant.
From what you say, you lack practical experiance, just be aware of that, and don't be to proud to admit it.
I once attended a property owned by a university lecturer. He had wired a 9kw shower into a 16A immersion radial circuit. I was there because he thought the new shower might be faulty !!!
I have said this before , so forgive me for repeating it.
Being competant is as much about knowing what you don't know, as it is about knowing what you do know.
 
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baldsparkies said:
Being competant is as much about knowing what you don't know, as it is about knowing what you do know.
Click to expand...

Thought Id give this promanance as it is a 1 line quote that sums everything up.

"Onetrack" - the other area you will struggle with when you start out is product knowledge. Knowing what is out there, what is new to the market and where it can and can not be used. Good luck
 
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Graeme and baldsparkies thanks for your input. Points taken aboard. totally agree with regards to practical experience and product knowledge. I am in know way proud to admit lack of experience. just highlighting where I stand. After reading the thread I thought there is absolutely no point in persuing the DI route, saying that I am still in two minds.
But your feedback is appreciated.
 
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i have seen some of this niciec work!!
NICIEC test sticker on the C/U
BS951 clamp on the sheath of the incoming lead sheath supply cable to provide the earth!!!
gas meter bonded on the supply side
I photographed it and scanned the NICIEC book hints adn tips and forwarded it to the body responsible for the property with a note telling them to check all the rest of them!
seen an NICIEC donestic installer fit a kitchen and change a C/U
the following faults were present
an exposed unearthed 240v light fitting int he shower cubicle
the old immersion heater cables taped up behind the tiles in the same cubicle
all sockets and switchgear shwoing signs of green slime
no smoke detectors fitted (partial refurb ) Part P
I stick with NAPIT they seem to be very thorough and their training courses are good as well
 
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onetrack said:
Graeme and baldsparkies thanks for your input. Points taken aboard. totally agree with regards to practical experience and product knowledge. I am in know way proud to admit lack of experience. just highlighting where I stand. After reading the thread I thought there is absolutely no point in persuing the DI route, saying that I am still in two minds.
But your feedback is appreciated.
Click to expand...

Onetrack, Not for one moment am I trying to put you off in any way.
Just don't go in blind.
Domestic installs can be a minefield until you build confidence through experience.
The average house owner is very wary when you first turn up at there door. Unless you have an experienced aproach, and know when to cross T's dot I's and cover your preverbial, they will pounce on you like a wounded animal.
The politics involved in house bashing is enough to put a house of commons debate to shame.
I am glad most of my work is commercial, yes its more specialised, yes its often more involved, but the rewards are better, and your dealing with people who usually have a good understanding of what they want and what your doing, and why.
Home owners have to be treated with kid gloves. You need to be a furniture remover, carpet fitter, house cleaner, and have the patience of a saint. And if your lucky, when youv'e finished, you might get paid !!
 
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I have worked in a training centre on the final week practical course giving a helping hand to the staff who are training the guys and gals in their final week.

The last week comprises of designing an installation where the "students" had to present their design and show their calculations and demonstrate how to use the regs book. They then take this electrical design and construct it in their own booth without assistance, like an AM2 but geared only for a domestic installation. After it has been completed, the student then tests the installation and has a Q&A with their assessor. After that, deliberate faults are put on to their circuits which then have to be found through a combination of inspecting and testing. After completing that, they can then swap booths with someone else and practice more testing and fault finding.

I did find to the most part by the end of that final week that most students had a good grasp of what they were doing.

Obviously the training is limited to certain scenarios i.e. working on timber frame properties only and it focuses on installation as opposed to adding to existing circuits and gives no practical assistance to working with an installation carried out by a DIYer from 20 years ago. However, it could be fair to say that plenty of people who go down the apprentice route also have similar experiences with only working on new builds etc.

I do think it is on the side of ignorance to assume that people who do the 5 week course have 5 weeks of theory, prac and exams and nothing else. From the people I had spoken to over the few weeks when I worked at one of these training centres, the majority took between 1 and 2 years to complete the course and over that time had their heads in books and working on past papers. Some as well worked with sparks as and when they could to gain as much hands on experience before deciding what to do once they had qualified and I should add, there were a few who didn't and needed to come back to re sit.

I can only speak from my experience at that particular centre (which I think now has gone bust, so they aren't necessarily the cash cows that people may think they are).

I would like to say however, as I have said on other posts previously. These intensive courses are fine in terms of the theory side of what you need to know to be a domestic installer, however, I do not think in most cases that they offer enough practical experience for someone to then go out working on their own, irrespective of weather they pass their on site assessment to self certify as well.
 
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Engineer54 said:
But not an Electrical Engineer!!!
Click to expand...

Neither are the majority of people on here.........NVQ level 3 does not constitute engineer status.. neither does a 3 year apprenticeship............usually an HNC/HND or degree will secure that, then to become chartered (been there done that and have the ties - they dont do t-shirts!!) you pay a scheme for the pleasure of putting letters after your name.....Oh and those letters I had were MIET, MIIRSM and MIRTE
 
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A Competent person is actually defined in law
but its a bit like passing your driving test
I recall about 200 years ago when I passed my motorcycle test ( kickstart, gas lights, no helmets,and total loss lubrication) that the examiner said to me you have now passed your test but you need to learn to ride a motorcycle
been learning ever since, adn the same with electrical work, soem of these youngsters are quicker at learning than me and are far more competent than I ever was ( blame the war) however its all down top mental attitude and skill
when I did my training ( we had a king on the throne) I was told by one of the old geezers that as long as you looked at a job and could see that you could make improvements and do it better you were doing ok
complacency kills
I met a chap very very highly qualified he could work out impedances etc in his head graduate electrical and electronic engineer
was way above me, however he had installed seeral new circuits in his business premises and they were lethal
many of the sockets had in excess of 230v most hovering around 415v
no grommets
cable poorly installed
and he was also complaining about the high energy bills
I checked the laod was balanced on all 3 phases, not too bad
then walked into the large workshop to see about 40 striplights the old large tubes and inbuilt choke fittings and most of the tubes were tipped
worn flourescent tubes can draw up to 30 percent more energy plus give out 20 percent less light
he had done all sorts of calculations for weeks
I did 2 things
I cleaned the windows, and then installed new tubes
his meter bill dropped massivly
but its only knowledge that I have learnt over the years and you never stop learning
I have worked with time served electricians who terrify me, their work is awful
thankfully most of them are now retired or fried
 
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Quote from Jurassic
"I recall about 200 years ago when I passed my motorcycle test ( kickstart, gas lights, no helmets,and total loss lubrication) that the examiner said to me you have now passed your test but you need to learn to ride a motorcycle
been learning ever since, adn the same with electrical work, soem of these youngsters are quicker at learning than me and are far more competent than I ever was ( blame the war) however its all down top mental attitude and skill"

Jurassic,
Passed my motorcycle test in 1970. Love em from Hyabusa to my Harley, Mind you at my age the Harley suits better. Have a look at the way this motorcycle cop handles a heavyweight Motorcycle. Now THAT'S what I call competant.
‪Donnie Williams - 2nd run‬‏ - YouTube
 
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actually it may not have been total loss lubrication the examiner may have meant me???
these days its a little guzzi, a few more weeks and I shall be off through France, Switzerland and into Italy
real motorcyling country
 
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Graeme Harrold said:
Neither are the majority of people on here.........NVQ level 3 does not constitute engineer status.. neither does a 3 year apprenticeship............usually an HNC/HND or degree will secure that, then to become chartered (been there done that and have the ties - they dont do t-shirts!!) you pay a scheme for the pleasure of putting letters after your name.....Oh and those letters I had were MIET, MIIRSM and MIRTE
Click to expand...

So, ....what are you telling us here, that your a Chartered Electrical Engineer, among other things also??
 
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What is a Domestic Installer ?
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Domestic Electrician Forum
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