Dealings with NEICIC..?

[nicebutdim]

Classic example of of privatising a regulatory public safety / industry responsibility. Government abstains from taking responsibility for safety standards, hands over to a private company that is only interested in profit. Cue the political debate The professionals get ripped off & the public get poor or non existent safety regulation!

I don't see that being the case. Schemes aren't responsible for safety standards and represent only those who choose to become members.

There is no requirement that electricians/electrical contractors join any of these schemes, but they do have a legal obligation to adhere to regulations which are based on statutory documents. There will be obvious reasons why many choose to join one of these registers and obvious reasons why many others choose not to. Membership is voluntary, wheras statutory requirements (handed down by elected legislators) are not.

There are obvious failings on the part of these schemes, but this failure to implement their own published standards is an entirely separate issue from industry safety standards.

I don't see any reason for political debate, despite my reservations about Tony Blair's government which brought about the 'Part P' situation in England and Wales.

 

[nicebutdim]

I note that Napit claim to "provide seamless routes to trade competence", when in fact it is a statutory requirement that anyone undertaking electrical work already be competent in doing so.

One might take from the above that Napit believe it acceptable to gain competence while on the job and under their stewardship, whereas the law makes clear that would not be the case.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I saw an interesting comment somewhere - someone said why is the assessment yearly? Once they've assessed you as competent the first year, then you're competent, no? Your competence can't suddenly vanish on year 2 so why the yearly assessment?

All a money making scam.

I made the very same point about paying a yearly subscription fee when part Pee first started and how its a sham as competence doesn't only last for 12 months.

My wife is a member of a sport organisiation so she can be liscensed to teach children in her field and her subs last 3 years and that includes 3 years of PL insurance and all for £90. The only thing she has to do is a zoom meeting every year and keep her first Aid and Dbs up to date at her own expense.

 

[rewireIT]

I made the very same point about paying a yearly subscription fee when part Pee first started and how its a sham as competence doesn't only last for 12 months.

My wife is a member of a sport organisiation so she can be liscensed to teach children in her field and her subs last 3 years and that includes 3 years of PL insurance and all for £90. The only thing she has to do is a zoom meeting every year and keep her first Aid and Dbs up to date at her own expense.

Sparks in this country are definitely getting scammed.

 

[DPG]

I saw an interesting comment somewhere - someone said why is the assessment yearly? Once they've assessed you as competent the first year, then you're competent, no? Your competence can't suddenly vanish on year 2 so why the yearly assessment?

All a money making scam.

No, but some people don't keep up to date with changes to the regs and current best practice. Hence regular assessments. No different to the Gas Safe system - they have to do the same. Many careers have similar things in fact - lorry drivers, the medical profession.

 

[rewireIT]

No, but some people don't keep up to date with changes to the regs and current best practice. Hence regular assessments. No different to the Gas Safe system - they have to do the same.

Sorry but this is a cop out excuse - we do our BS7671 exams to prove we know the current regs. If i have to prove to a scheme that i know the current regs via an exam with them then why do i have to have my 18th? Someone with an apprenticeship, an NVQ, an AM2 and testing and inspection shouldn't have to do a 12 monthly exam to prove competency. Competency does not change regardless of best practice which is only a guideline.

The basics of electrics always remain the basics.

 

[DPG]

Sorry but this is a cop out excuse - we do our BS7671 exams to prove we know the current regs. If i have to prove to a scheme that i know the current regs via an exam with them then why do i have to have my 18th? Someone with an apprenticeship, an NVQ, an AM2 and testing and inspection shouldn't have to do a 12 monthly exam to prove competency. Competency does not change regardless of best practice which is only a guideline.

The basics of electrics always remain the basics.

Indeed, but how many sparks still don't fully understand stuff like type A RCDs, usage of RCDs, changes in requirements for bathrooms etc. Some are quite happy just doing what they've done for the last 20 years cos 'nothings changed'.

Not saying the current system solves that, but that's one of the reasons for regular assessments.

 

[Dustydazzler]

This is where the Scam memberships get murky , its not just about competence / checking you are still doing it right.
As DGP says its also to check you are all up to date with the latest guidance and now working to the most recent Regs etc.
Have you got all the most up to date information and or do you know what the latest ammendments are. Is all your paperwork and insurance up to date etc.

Does this require you to pay a hefty yearly sub Fee, probably not But the Scams are in business to make money so yearly Fees are here to stay

 

[rewireIT]

Not saying the current system solves that, but that's one of the reasons for regular assessments.

I'd say every 12 months was waaaay more than required.

Changes in requirements should be covered by your latest edition of the wiring regs...?

 

[Dustydazzler]

I'd say every 12 months was waaaay more than required.

Changes in requirements should be covered by your latest edition of the wiring regs...?

IMO I would say every 3 years for a follow up Scam assesment would be fine

 

[westward10]

Passing a multiple choice test on BS7671 is a long way off saying you have a good understanding of it.

 

[nicebutdim]

A point being missed about schemes is that membership is voluntary.

No one is required to join and therefore no one is required to undergo their annual assessments. Assessment is a condition of membership, to which members agree upon joining.

It seems like ancient history now, but the point of this thread was highlighting how difficult it is to convince schemes to take action against members who don't work to proscribed practices. I'm not sure how that ties into the argument for less oversight of members.

 

[nicebutdim]

Passing a multiple choice test on BS7671 is a long way off saying you have a good understanding of it.

It also doesn't ensure you keep up with subsequent amendments to regulations, of which there have been many since publication of the 18th edition.

 

[Cankeredlamentations]

Passing a multiple choice test on BS7671 is a long way off saying you have a good understanding of it.

very true, I have passed my 18th edition in January this year, I refer to the book to looks things up but I think I am years away from being able to memorise and quote reg numbers from the top of my head like the much more experienced sparks.

 

[7029 dave]

Just my two bob worth, IMO if that MP,s Daughter did not die of electrocution I dont think part pee would have been born. (in the domestic sector)
It could not be ignored so they jumped on the concept of notifiable work and periodic accreditation via cps all at a great cost. we have now to try and stamp out cowboy practices, core qualifications and experience/ competence is not enough.
However the bit I cant get my head round is the un notifiable work, electricity is electricity it can kill it has the same dangers as any other task regarding electrical installation work.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Just my two bob worth, IMO if that MP,s Daughter did not die of electrocution I dont think part pee would have been born. (in the domestic sector)
It could not be ignored so they jumped on the concept of notifiable work and periodic accreditation via cps all at a great cost. we have now to try and stamp out cowboy practices, core qualifications and experience/ competence is not enough.
However the bit I cant get my head round is the un notifiable work, electricity is electricity it can kill it has the same dangers as any other task regarding electrical installation work.

Not to mention they actuallt relaxed the non-notifiable jobs like Kitchens and Garden work...
Which seemed odd as these would be considered the areas which require better undertanding of the Regs than just adding a new radial to a loft socket for expample

 

[ipf]

It also doesn't ensure you keep up with subsequent amendments to regulations, of which there have been many since publication of the 18th edition.

Whilst upgrades and changes are always going to occur, there's no doubt that this is another reason for money making.... paid for, as a rule, by those like us who keep the trade going.

 

[rewireIT]

Passing a multiple choice test on BS7671 is a long way off saying you have a good understanding of it.

So we're saying the exam and qualification isn't fit for purpose? Why do we have to do it then?

 

[nicebutdim]

So we're saying the exam and qualification isn't fit for purpose? Why do we have to do it then?

Unless I've misread the comment, I believe the point was that 18th edition exam focus is on changes from previous edition and doesn't prove a substantial knowledge of BS7671.

 

[davesparks]

So we're saying the exam and qualification isn't fit for purpose? Why do we have to do it then?

The point of that course is to teach you how to use the regulations book to find the information you require.