NHS issues safety alert on socket covers requiring removal from NHS premises!

[Flanders]

So It looks like the only way these things will be band is when someone get Killed !!! Its a shame they are not even looking at changing their policy

 

[Spoon]

I can be an pain when I get a bee in my bonnet..... I'm contacting the Department of Education now to see what they say.

 

[Flanders]

Fair Play Good look with that

 

[Spoon]

Have to wait up to 15 days for a reply. Will keep you informed.

 

[UNG]

Do Ofsted not see the dangers of bypassing the safety of the socket with something that has no safety standards?

The NHS has stated that “13A electrical socket inserts should not be used in health or social care premises, nor supplied for use in a home or residence. Any socket inserts currently in use should be withdrawn from use and responsibly disposed of.” Do you not think the same should be done at schools and nurseries?

Below is their reply.

Thank you for emailing back following my response to your previous email of 04 July 2016.

I have nothing further to add to my previous response to you.The statutory framework that underpins our regulatory duty is owned by the Department for Education (DfE). You may contact them if you wish to question why the law does not forbid the use of electrical safety socket covers in childcare settings.

That pretty much sums it up......

I find it quite worrying that these people are responsible for monitoring childcare and education establishments with a reply like that. Having said that they have gone from you must have them to a stance of we won't mark down establishments that don't have them did the DfE make that decision for them

 

[Spoon]

I find it funny that Ofsted quote "Providers may wish to consult the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (ROSPA)and Child Accident Protection Trust websites for information to help them makea decision about the use of socket covers." changed to "Thestatutory framework that underpins our regulatory duty is owned by theDepartment for Education (DfE)."

I wonder who they will pick next if DfE come back with a sensible reply.

 

[baldelectrician]

Glad people are now listening
The Scottish Care comission (they supervise carers, nursing homes and NHS sites) have also issues the release (dated 30th June)

Well done on your campaign.

 

[baldelectrician]

I have just sent an email to the Scottish Government- I will wait for a reply and post here

 

[Spoon]

Just got a reply back from Dfe.


Thank you for your email dated 3 August about socket safety covers.

The Department for Education does not have a policy on the use of safety socket covers. It is up to individual childcare providers to ensure that their premises and equipment are safe and meet any safety legislation that is required. I have however asked the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) for their advice on the matter you have raised. HSE’s advice is as follows:

There are no health and safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers. HSE have a neutral position on the use of socket covers. Modern domestic and general use socket outlets have safety shutters within them to prevent access to live parts (inside the lower two openings of a socket outlet). The risk of anyone accessing live parts of such a socket outlet is considered to be low due to this feature. The decision on whether or not to use socket covers is a matter for providers after considering the risks.

I hope that this is helpful


This is really frustrating that only the NHS care about the people it looks after. I will reply to them sometime this morning.

 

[Spoon]

Update from DfE to my email below.

Many thanks for the reply.
I must say that I am shocked by the Dfe and HSE indifference to the dangers of these 'safety socket covers'. Yes the socket outlets are designed to BS 1363, the ''safety socket covers' have no safety standard, yet you leave it up to individual childcare providers to do a risk assessment on these.
Do you train the childcare providers on the BS standards and what is safe? If not then how are they to know?
Does the Dfe and HSE have no concerns that bypassing the safety of a socket outlet with something that has no British safety standard may lead to someone being injured? Hence the NHS putting out a safety alert.


Thank you for your email
I would like to provide reassurance that the DfE is not indifferent to the safety of children in childcare settings and we require providers to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of children and they must comply with health and safety legislation but the DfE's role does not extend to setting safety standards for electrical equipment in the same way that its not our role to set fire safety regulations for example. As a Department we rely on the Health and Safety Executive to provide advice on health and safety issues. Like any responsible organisation caring for children and as employers we expect early years providers to seek any training or guidance they need. As HSE have pointed out that there are no regulations in relation to 'safety socket covers', in seeking guidance early years providers can of course take the NHS alert into account when assessing risks to children. ‎We have noted that the National day Nurseries Association has included the NHS alert on their website, for childcare providers to refer to.

The National day Nurseries Association (NDNA) did include the NHS alert, 27th July 2016.
http://www.ndna.org.uk/NDNA/Need_to_know/You_need_to_know.aspx

I will now contact the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and see their views on the NHS alert and should they do more to inform people of this, like inform OFSTED.

 

[Spoon]

An update from HSE (Health and Safety Executive)


With reference to your query re the Safety Alert issued regarding socket covers.

There are no Health and Safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers and therefore HSE has a neutral position on their use.


3-pin sockets of the type referred to should be manufactured in accordance with British Standard (BS) 1363. Compliant modern domestic and general equipment will have a shutter system that prevents access to live parts when the socket is not in use. When a 3-pin plug is offered up to the socket the earth pin (which is the top pin that is slightly longer than the two below in a standard plug) will push the shutter from its usual position and allow the live and neutral pins to enter the socket. The risk of anyone accessing live parts of such a socket is considered to be low due to this feature and there should therefore be no need to use a socket protector on this type of equipment. It is however a matter for the duty holder at the premises to consider the particular circumstances to determine the most appropriate means of protection. The ‘safe construction’ and maintenance of the socket outlet is the most important factor from our perspective. The Safety Alert provides advice about the risk within the NHS environment but we would see it as useful information to reference as part of any risk assessment.


There is no British Standard for socket covers that sits as part of, or alongside the requirements for the wall socket held within BS 1363. Therefore we would not advise directly on the use or otherwise of the covers. What we would advise is a Risk Assessment (RA) is done that considers whether extra measures are required. If the RA identified that extra measures were needed to reduce risks further, then care is needed so that any extra measures should not create more risks. The guidance provided by the alert appears sensible and contains further links to The Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET) guidance which HSE has referred people to previously. It also has links to the Fatally Flawed site which includes links to other information, in particular a written submission to a Consumer Rights Bill Committee in 2014. I have also added links below to references about socket protectors by ROSPA and the Child Accident Prevention Trust. You may also be interested in the response from OFSTED to a parent enquiry on the topic (via mumsnet) in the final link I have included below.


http://www.rospa.com/home-safety/resources/policy-statements/electricity/


http://www.capt.org.uk/safety-advice/keeping-children-safe-electric-shocks


http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childminders_nannies_au_pairs_etc/946800-Ofsted-policy-on-Socket-Covers


With regards to the "There are no Health and Safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers...." I am going to give them some electrical standards that will apply, when I have some spare time to look through the regs. First ones are 133.1.1, 133.1.3...
Can you guys help me out with this and post some.
They have also replied by using a 'no-reply email address'.... Do you ever get the feeling that some people just love putting their heads in the sand and just ignoring everything....

 

[Richard Burns]

Possibly 553.1 in that the sockets are not shuttered in compliance with BS1363 once a cover is inserted.
However BS7671 will not cover much as this is an item plugged in not part of the fixed installation.
Health and safety legislation at work covers identified dangers for which the risk must be minimised preferably by removing the source of danger.

 

[Spoon]

Hi People, an update from DfE below.

I’m sorry about not responding to your earlier emails.


We have been considering what is the best way to advise the childcare sector about the potential dangers of using socket covers/inserts and that they can use the DH alert when considering the risk of using them.

We expect to publish something shortly. I will send you an update when it is published and where to find it.

I am still questioning them. I'm sure they are going to hire a hit squad to take me out, so that I stop pestering them.....

 

[Spoon]

See below an update from HSE (Health and Safety Executive)

Thank you for your comments following the reply that HSE’s Advice Team sent you in response to your earlier query.


It is not the case that HSE has not made a comment, the original HSE reply included the statement that “there should therefore be no need to use a socket protector on this type of equipment”. We would certainly anticipate in most cases that socket covers would not be required. However a principle of the Health and Safety at Work Act is that it is non-prescriptive and gives flexibility to duty holders to decide what measures need to be put in place to control health and safety risks. This is based on a risk assessment which will be specific to a particular duty holder/premises etc.


Childcare providers will need to carry out risk assessments. HSE is not a training provider. We provide advice and guidance on risk management and completing risk assessments on our website at http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/index.htm .


Again, I am still questioning them but you can only contact them by filling in a form, the response can take up to 30 days via a "noreplyadvice" email. It's virtually impossible to have a discussion with them.

 

[Spoon]

I think HSE don't like me. Just got this.

HSE are unable to add anything further to your enquiry and a specialist inspector has provided a response to your questions in regard to safety sockets.

The NHS Safety Alert provides advice about the risk within the NHS environment but this has come from the NHS and is in regard to their particular environment.


HSE have not produced any safety alerts on this matter.


If you have any further questions on the NHS Safety Alert I would suggest you contact taking into account the information is for risks within the NHS environment.

I appreciate that this is not the response you were hoping for from the Health and Safety Executive, however we are unable to assist you further in this matter.


Please note it is our policy to responded to enquires via the no-reply account. All follow up and new questions can therefore be audited and monitored via our internal systems when put onto the Advice form. All requests (either new or follow up questions) for advice should come into HSE via this route.

I am still questioning them.

If anyone else would like to question them about this then their link to the form if below:

HSE - Advice Web community - Advice form - http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/connect.ti/advice/answerQuestionnaire?qid=593891

 

[sunray]

It would appear that many sparks here do not like the MK brand. For the reasons given, this is my selling point for using MK socket outlets, in my opinion they are second to none for safety in this regard. Worth the extra pennies.

I have two issues with the MK sockets of this design;
1) They are harder to insert than many other styles and people tend to locate the plug then give it a bash. this results in damaged sockets, especially the 'very safe mechanism' which often jambs open. Oh perhaps that's why we need the safety plugs after all.
2) I have replaced more MK sockets than any other brand where they have overheated and burnt or welded to a plug. I had some discussion on 'the other site' on this topic and one year i kept all of the faulty items with the intention of photographing and posting. Sadly I never got around to it and dumped them but the final count must have been around 50-70 and about 70% MK 30% other makes.

When I replaced my kitchen about 10 years ago I decided to go for MK with neons, I have 7 DSSO's so purchased 2 boxes of 5. As they failed I replaced and currently have 3 still working so 7 have failed in 10 years. In the 22 years I've been here I have not replaced any elsewhere in the house due to failure, other than physically broken.

 

[stevethesparks]

That's interesting, and something I will keep an eye on, but to date have only have one issue with a single outlet where the switch failed from new. I wonder if the design/construction has altered in those 10 years?

 

[Spoon]

Hi People, an update from DfE (Department for Education) below.


Thank you for your email.


The Department for Education regularly shares key messages and announcements with the early years sector via the Foundation Years website, which provides the latest information, support and advice to early years and childcare providers and parents/carers. I can confirm that the department has issued a notice on the Foundation Years website about the use of electrical plug socket covers/inserts in early years provision in England, which includes a link to the DH alert. The notice, which was issued on 6 October, is available at: www.foundationyears.org.uk/2016/10/dfe-note-on-the-use-of-electrical-plug-socket-coversinserts-in-early-years-provision-in-england. The same information has also been sent out in a newsletter to early years providers.


Well done DfE. Many thanks to the person who I have been bugging with emails.

It would be great if the HSE cared half as much as the DfE does about the people they looks after.

 

[stevethesparks]

Well done Dfe and well done Spoon also.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

I think HSE don't like me. Just got this.

HSE are unable to add anything further to your enquiry and a specialist inspector has provided a response to your questions in regard to safety sockets.

The NHS Safety Alert provides advice about the risk within the NHS environment but this has come from the NHS and is in regard to their particular environment.

HSE have not produced any safety alerts on this matter.

If you have any further questions on the NHS Safety Alert I would suggest you contact taking into account the information is for risks within the NHS environment.

I appreciate that this is not the response you were hoping for from the Health and Safety Executive, however we are unable to assist you further in this matter.

Please note it is our policy to responded to enquires via the no-reply account. All follow up and new questions can therefore be audited and monitored via our internal systems when put onto the Advice form. All requests (either new or follow up questions) for advice should come into HSE via this route.

I am still questioning them.

If anyone else would like to question them about this then their link to the form if below:

HSE - Advice Web community - Advice form - http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/connect.ti/advice/answerQuestionnaire?qid=593891

Spoon, well done! Compare your message with the denial I was getting from HSE some years ago:

"For the record I repeat below information which has been given to a number of parties interested in this topic earlier this summer. HSE were asked the question 'Does the use of a socket cover in a socket designed to BS1361 introduce danger?' Our response was that in our opinion the answer to that is that if the socket cover is correctly used then it will not introduce danger. It should be remembered that a socket outlet designed to BS1361 has been designed so as to be safe - hence the shutters - when correctly used and maintained. Similarly, if a socket cover is correctly used and maintained it will not introduce danger. Incorrect use and/or a lack of maintenance to ensure the continuing integrity of the socket outlet and/or the socket cover are liable to lead to dangerous conditions existing.

I see no reason to change that response, HSE's position on these items has been extensively explained and that unless there is any new information you can advise me off then the correspondence is closed."

HSE has always refused to explain to me how something which is the wrong size (as they ALL are) to fit into a BS 1363 socket can be "correctly used and maintained"!

I am sure that you all know the results of forcing oversize pins into sockets, and the dangers of using socket covers which actually result in partially uncovered socket apertures (like the cover in my avatar), but what about the damage caused to shutters? The leading socket cover brand, Clippasafe (sold by Amazon, Boots and John Lewis amongst others) has an “earth pin” which is severely tapered on top, therefore it will not operate shutters which rely on the earth pin lifting the shutter (eg older Crabtree sockets) or the lifting latch mechanism in the Hager three pin operated shutters (which is an extra-safe design). Attempting to force a Clippasafe cover (and some others) into this type of socket will permanently damage the shutter mechanism. Some of the following Amazon reviews of the Clippasafe cover refer to having to bang them in or use a hammer! You might just as well drive a nail through the socket shutters as do that.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/custome...=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000F5Z2JE

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/custome...=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000F5Z2JE

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/custome...=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000F5Z2JE

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/custome...=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000F5Z2JE

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/custome...=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000F5Z2JE

However, progress is being made, and the efforts of all the electricians who have got behind this campaign continue to make a real difference, Thank you from FatallyFlawed!

 

[mrloy99]

can also be used to stop anyone unplugging an appliance e.g. a computer.

or switching it off when /if it goes on fire

 

[netblindpaul]

Update from DfE to my email below.

Many thanks for the reply.
I must say that I am shocked by the Dfe and HSE indifference to the dangers of these 'safety socket covers'. Yes the socket outlets are designed to BS 1363, the ''safety socket covers' have no safety standard, yet you leave it up to individual childcare providers to do a risk assessment on these.
Do you train the childcare providers on the BS standards and what is safe? If not then how are they to know?
Does the Dfe and HSE have no concerns that bypassing the safety of a socket outlet with something that has no British safety standard may lead to someone being injured? Hence the NHS putting out a safety alert.


Thank you for your email
I would like to provide reassurance that the DfE is not indifferent to the safety of children in childcare settings and we require providers to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of children and they must comply with health and safety legislation but the DfE's role does not extend to setting safety standards for electrical equipment in the same way that its not our role to set fire safety regulations for example. As a Department we rely on the Health and Safety Executive to provide advice on health and safety issues. Like any responsible organisation caring for children and as employers we expect early years providers to seek any training or guidance they need. As HSE have pointed out that there are no regulations in relation to 'safety socket covers', in seeking guidance early years providers can of course take the NHS alert into account when assessing risks to children. ‎We have noted that the National day Nurseries Association has included the NHS alert on their website, for childcare providers to refer to.

The National day Nurseries Association (NDNA) did include the NHS alert, 27th July 2016.
Knowledge Hub | UK Childcare updates | NDNA - http://www.ndna.org.uk/NDNA/Need_to_know/You_need_to_know.aspx

I will now contact the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and see their views on the NHS alert and should they do more to inform people of this, like inform OFSTED.

Spoon,
Sorry, now I realise that the link is not yours, but, I can't trace the ndna announcement, any pointers please?

Thanks

 

[Richard Burns]

Spoon,
Sorry, now I realise that the link is not yours, but, I can't trace the ndna announcement, any pointers please?

Thanks

NHS - Requirement to remove socket inserts - http://www.ndna.org.uk/NDNA/Need_to_know/NHS_remove_socket_inserts.aspx?WebsiteKey=5e278c52-0dec-4482-ad81-d06b25949f8b

 

[netblindpaul]

NHS - Requirement to remove socket inserts - http://www.ndna.org.uk/NDNA/Need_to_know/NHS_remove_socket_inserts.aspx?WebsiteKey=5e278c52-0dec-4482-ad81-d06b25949f8b

Thank you Richard, I have the main text , it was just the cross reference from the ndna site I could not get to as the original link did not work.

 

[Spoon]

An update from OFSTED I just got:


As per my response to your query of 07 July 2016, on 15 July 2016, our position on the matter remains the same. The ‘Statutory framework for the early years foundation stage’ (EYFS) and the Childcare Register regulations set out the requirements that providers must meet to ensure the welfare and safety of children. There is nothing in these requirements that prohibits the use of electrical socket covers. Ofsted does not have the power to impose anything that is not a legal requirement for childcare providers.


‘We neither recommend nor criticise the use of socket covers by childcare providers. It is the responsibility of the provider to ensure that premises, environment and equipment are safe and suitable for their purpose. We do not prescribe the way in which safety measures are to be put in place. There are no specific requirements in legislation or the early years statutory framework that socket covers must be placed in electrical sockets.


It is for the provider to decide as part of the risk assessment they carry out at their premises how best to protect children from dangers associated with electric sockets and appliances. Providers may wish to consult the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (ROSPA) and Child Accident Protection Trust websites for information to help them make a decision about the use of socket covers’.


I hope this makes our position very clear on the matter.


I told them that DfE have changed their policy, now OFSTED don't mention them in their email.. These people are unbelievable.... Talk about sticking your head in the sand....

 

[Spoon]

Here is my reply to them.


Your quote “I hope this makes our position very clear on the matter.” is not very clear when you contradict yourself. I see that you have not read my email I sent today.

Didn’t you state in an earlier email “The statutory framework that underpins our regulatory duty is owned by the Department for Education (DfE).”

Now that the DfE have change their policy on the 6th October 2016 you are no longer standing by your original statement. You are not willing to update yours to be in line with the DfE. Things do get confusing when people don’t keep their word.

Have you read the Foundation Years web site recently with regards to the above? A note from the Department for Education on the use of electrical plug socket covers/inserts in early years provision in England | From pregnancy to children aged 5 - http://www.foundationyears.org.uk/2016/10/dfe-note-on-the-use-of-electrical-plug-socket-coversinserts-in-early-years-provision-in-england/

It looks like OFSTED are the ones that are still indifferent to the possible dangers of these and are still unwilling to update their policy. Why?

 

[FatallyFlawed]

Here is my reply to them.

It looks like OFSTED are the ones that are still indifferent to the possible dangers of these and are still unwilling to update their policy. Why?

Spoon,
I have to congratulate you on getting replies from Ofsted. I used to, but this year I have completely failed! Here is the message that I have sent FOUR TIMES in the past few months! It was sent originally on 7/7/16, again on 25/7/16, the third time (below) on 19/9/16, each time to the last actual person with whom I had had contact at Ofsted:

"Dear Mr (previous correspondent),

This is the THIRD time I have sent this message, and I have still had no response!

Please can you provide an answer?

Please see this new alert from the NHS requiring all NHS Trusts to withdraw socket covers from use:

CAS-ViewAlert - https://www.cas.dh.gov.uk/ViewAndAcknowledgment/viewAlert.aspx?AlertID=102494

This follows on from recent warnings by Barnardos.

I hope that you will agree that the NHS action represents a rather more responsible attitude to the subject than that of Ofsted who still, as far as I know, sit on the fence.

BS 1363 plugs and sockets, which are the type used in all British homes, businesses and care facilities, are rigorously controlled, both by the BS 1363 standard itself, and the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994 which impose penalties of up to 6 months imprisonment for noncompliance. By comparison, there are NO standards for plug-in socket covers, and they are subject to no regulation! Many people do not realise that BS 1363 plugs are subject to precise dimensional control. BS 1363 sockets are designed to accept only plugs meeting the BS 1363 dimensions. There are NO socket covers on the market which conform to those dimensions!

• The whole idea of using socket covers in British BS 1363 sockets is based on a myth, not fact.
• There is no official Government advice which suggests the use of socket covers.
• None of the leading safety charities recommends the use of socket covers.

Can we now expect that Ofsted will at last come off the fence and adopt the NHS approach that plug-in socket covers should never be used?"

And, once again, on 4/10/16, this time to the address from which the acknowledgements were sent, prefaced by this message
"From: David Peacock
Sent: 04 October 2016 15:30
To: 'EY-Childcare'
Subject: Child safety issue - socket covers RE: Thank you for your email.

This was the THIRD TIME I received an acknowledgement to my repeated question - but each time there has been no follow up! Is your process completely broken?

I have restated the question below.

Co-founder, FatallyFlawed"

Each time I have received an immediate acknowledgement, the most recent shown below, but never an actual reply!

From: EY-Childcare [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 04 October 2016 15:30
To: David Peacock
Subject: Thank you for your email.

Thank you for your email.

We aim to provide a substantive reply to all queries within 10 working days. However more complex queries, or those requiring liaison with a third party, may mean that this is not always possible. In these circumstances, we will send a holding reply, updating you on our progress and where practical, provide you with a revised timescale.

It will help us to help you, if you can indicate the timescale that you are working to, especially if you require an urgent response.

Ofsted
Early Education Team

Our purpose is to ensure that children attending early years and childcare provision have the best possible support in their development, are safe and are well cared for."

I find it very difficult to take that statement of purpose with any seriousness!

Meanwhile, there is a parliamentary question to the Secretary of State for Education which you can access (the answer, when there is one, will also appear there).

 

[FatallyFlawed]

Spoon,

Meanwhile, there is a parliamentary question to the Secretary of State for Education which you can access (the answer, when there is one, will also appear there).

The question has been answered by Edward Timpson MP, Minister of State for Vulnerable Children and Families, who wrote:
"The Department for Education has never required the use of socket covers in schools. All socket outlets in teaching areas of schools are designed to BS1363 and have built in safety shutters.

The Department of Health guidance followed recent advice from electrical engineers that in some circumstances socket covers can compromise the safe operation of socket outlets and advises against their use."

 

[Spoon]

I have no problem with the DfE. They have taken advice and updated their policy of these socket covers.
I don't understand why Ofsted are so reluctant to do the same. Even when they know they could be potentially dangerous.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

Here is the latest (this evening) from Department for Education:

All schools and early years settings in England have a duty to keep children safe. As part of that duty we expect them to keep their health and safety policies under review and up-to-date.

Working with ‘Action for Children’ we have brought the Department of Health’s recent alert on the dangers associated with the use of electrical socket covers to the attention of early years providers in England. ‘Action for Children’ has published a notice, via the Foundation Years website, about the use of electrical socket covers in early years provision in England. This is available at: www.foundationyears.org.uk/2016/10/dfe-note-on-the-use-of-electrical-plug-socket-coversinserts-in-early-years-provision-in-england. ‘Action for Children’ has also published the information in a newsletter to early years providers.

We are currently reviewing our health and safety advice for schools, and will consider whether to include a similar reference in a future addition of this advice as part of this work.

See: Schools: Electrical Safety:Written question - 49797 - http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2016-10-21/49797/

 

[derek]

Well done Spoon!

 

[Spoon]

Update from HSE:

HSE have had correspondence with the founders of Fatally Flawed on the use of socket covers over many years. HSE hold a neutral position on these items as there are no health and safety regulations that either require or ban the use of socket covers. Modern domestic and general use socket outlets to BS1363 have safety shutters within them to prevent access to live parts (inside the lower two openings of a socket outlet). The risk of anyone accessing live parts of such a socket outlet is considered to be low due to this feature. The decision on whether or not to use socket covers is a matter for the dutyholder after considering the risks.


HSE does not have the legal powers to prevent these products being placed on the market however, such powers are available to local authority Trading Standards departments and are monitored by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).


In response to your specific questions:


1 & 2. Your 2nd question presumes the devices are dangerous. We do not intend to reopen debates that have been had many years ago – see above.
3. HSE’s position has been made known many times to various organisations and has not changed from that given above.
4. as advised above it is for trading standards, not HSE , to consider your suggested recommendation.

 

[Spoon]

Below is a reply from Ofsted regarding my questions on post #76.

We do not believe the Department for Education (DfE) has changed its policy, since it makes it clear that using socket covers is not illegal, and it has not changed the Statutory framework for the early years foundation stage (EYFS) to require providers not to use them. In its statement, you refer to, the DfE does refer to the fact that providers will need to take the Department of Health’s advice into account in conducting the risk assessments that are already required under the EYFS, and we support that approach.


Furthermore, we will ensure our inspectors are alert to the DfE’s message on this point.


I hope this helps clarify our position.

 

[Spoon]

I had this email from RoSPA yesterday.


It’s gratifying that you set so much store by the advice RoSPA gives on our website. If you’d like to provide me with the following I’ll certainly take it into account when future amendments are made:

• Links to any reputable websites that have updated their information (obviously I am aware of the DH although this is principally an internal technical document, and of Fatally Flawed)
  
• Any recent case studies of anyone injured as a result of the use of socket covers
  
• Any comparative analysis of numbers of people injured as a result of a socket cover being present compared to numbers of people injured by use of electric sockets when socket covers weren’t present
  
• Any new evidence of increased hazards beyond the information which has been on the Fatally Flawed website for many years
  

I assume you will have previously presented such evidence to the Department of Health in order to secure their support. Unfortunately before an organisation like RoSPA can take action on a safety matter we do need to be sure that we can present clear evidence not just of the theoretical hazard but also the risk and the scale of the problem.

Congratulations The Royal Society of the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA). The organisation that is actually waiting for someone to get injured before doing anything......

 

[Spoon]

It seems my winning personality has not won this time. RoSPA have rejected me and no longer wish to talk to me.
This is what I received.

Always happy to have dialogue but have shared our current view and our commitment to review so really have nothing to add at this stage.

I have pointed out that in the 4 months I have been in contact with them there has been no visible change to their policy.
If anyone would like to follow up or just ask RoSPA's opinion on the Department of Health alert then you can contact the below gentleman. Good luck, I hope he helps you out more.

Ashley Martin
Public Health Project Manager.
His email address is:
[email protected]

I am now going to sulk in a corner... I don't like rejection....

 

[FatallyFlawed]

It seems my winning personality has not won this time. RoSPA have rejected me and no longer wish to talk to me.
This is what I received.

Always happy to have dialogue but have shared our current view and our commitment to review so really have nothing to add at this stage.

I have pointed out that in the 4 months I have been in contact with them there has been no visible change to their policy.
If anyone would like to follow up or just ask RoSPA's opinion on the Department of Health alert then you can contact the below gentleman. Good luck, I hope he helps you out more.

Ashley Martin
Public Health Project Manager.
His email address is:
[email protected]

I am now going to sulk in a corner... I don't like rejection....

They are blinkered, have their head in the sand, but are consistent (which, in this case, is not something to be proud of!)

Quote on this subject from 2008, RoSPA Deputy Chief Executive writing to me: “RoSPA's position won't change unless evidence suggests that socket covers have suddenly started to seriously harm hundreds of children every year.”
FatallyFlawed believes that one child harmed is too many, or one family dying in a house fire caused by a socket fire is too many!

 

[Barry White]

Spoon you tried hard and seemed to get further unfortunatly you got the same old answer. Well done for trying

 

[Spoon]

It has not finished yet my friends.

I have told RoSPA that I will keep an eye on their policy and send them a reminder, on a periodic basis, if there is no visible change.

I'm sure Mr Martin will soon be pining for one of my emails, if I don't send him one. We are like brothers.....

 

[FatallyFlawed]

TODAY, ITV's "Good Morning Britain" transmitted a piece about poorly performing nurseries. Amongst their complaints was "exposed sockets", referring to sockets which (correctly) had no socket covers! See GMB Investigates: Are nurseries safe? - at 2 minutes 40 seconds.

 

[Spoon]

TODAY, ITV's "Good Morning Britain" transmitted a piece about poorly performing nurseries. Amongst their complaints was "exposed sockets", referring to sockets which (correctly) had no socket covers! See GMB Investigates: Are nurseries safe? - at 2 minutes 40 seconds.

Unbelievable.... They should have got their fact right.
Looks like I will have to see tomorrow if I can contact GMB and notify them of the DoH alert.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

Unbelievable.... They should have got their fact right.
Looks like I will have to see tomorrow if I can contact GMB and notify them of the DoH alert.

You need: [email protected] The more people who tell them the better!

 

[Spoon]

You need: [email protected] The more people who tell them the better!

Thanks. I spotted the email at the bottom of the link. I will get in touch tomorrow.

 

[Spoon]

Lets see if they will also do an investigation into these "Socket Safety Covers" and shouldn't the public know about the DoH alert.

 

[Spoon]

Just out of curiosity, who else has contacted GMB about their error?
As FatallyFlawed have said "The more people who tell them the better."

 

[Spoon]

Just got a reply from GMB.

Many thanks for your detailed email. It is not an area I was familiar with. Very interesting.

Hopefully they will do a report on these covers. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Spoon]

I have been having a nice conversation with a guy from GMB asking about these covers.
I have answered his questions and gave him the contact details & web site for FatallyFlawed. There are a lot more qualified people here that can explain the possible dangers of these sockets than me.
Hopefully he will get in touch.

 

[telectrix]

I have been having a nice conversation with a guy from GMB asking about these covers.
I have answered his questions and gave him the contact details & web site for FatallyFlawed. There are a lot more qualified people here that can explain the possible dangers of these sockets than me.
Hopefully he will get in touch.

done exactly same. emailed gmb and sent a link to fatallyflawed

 

[HandySparks]

I have been having a nice conversation with a guy from GMB asking about these covers.
I have answered his questions and gave him the contact details & web site for FatallyFlawed. There are a lot more qualified people here that can explain the possible dangers of these sockets than me.
Hopefully he will get in touch.

Nice one.

(I have to keep reminding myself that you're not referring to the General, Municipal and Boilermakers!)

 

[Spoon]

Latest from HSE.


Please see below response from the Policy team.

Your recent correspondence is noted.

1. There is no ‘new’ information provided on socket covers only that a body has decided to publish its position on their use within their premise. This does not change HSE’s stated view on the use of these items.

2. You appear to have misunderstood the information we provided here - HSE doesn’t rely on external bodies to determine its policy. As previously stated HSE has no powers to ban these items, the appropriate body with the powers to do so is Trading Standards.

You may be interested to note that the charity Electrical Safety First holds similar views on these devices see Socket covers - http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/press-releases/2009/06/socket-covers/.

HSE now consider this correspondence closed.

Thank you for your feedback and comments.



I was also asking them to go along the same route as the DoH alert, but now would be happy if they just did something similar to the DfE and updated their policy and added a link to the DoH alert.

So the HSE are now sending out out-of-date info on these safety covers to the public from third party organisations, like Electrical Safety First. Electrical Safety First have updated their policy on these covers in 2015.

 

[Spoon]

Did anyone see anything from Good Morning Britain explaining their error they had on the report they did about nurseries?
I've seen and heard nothing from them.