Metal Halide Lamp failure

[ray-bentos]

Hello
I attended a customers property today to check on a fault with some latern courtyard lamps. There are 4 lamps and the centre 2 are not working. The customer had replaced the bulbs himself but there was no joy.

As a first port of call I swapped the 2 working bulbs from the outer fittings with the unworking bulbs to rule out bulb failure. Once swapped the bulbs are fine with the outer two fittings but still no light on the centre 2.

I used a lightmate on the centre fitting and voltage is present at 230v. The customer was not present in the property at the time so I could only access the yard however there is no sign of any ballast anywhere near the lamp. The lanterns are attached to a high wall (perhaps 20ft) with pillars which the lights sit on. The flex from the fitting simply disappers down inside the pillar. I have done work at his property before and there is a room containing all the consumer units, AV gear and switchgear for the property but I cannot for the life in me remember seeing any ballasts for sodium/halide lamps in there, just armoured cable for the courtyard lighting exiting the room underground.

I didn't have my multimeter with me so the only test I could run was that voltage was present and even to check the fitting was tight used a normal BC energy saver which lit in all fittings.

What should my next course of action be? I'm not going to lie I don't have a huge wealth of experience with arc lighting. The customer had reported that the RCBO supplying the courtyard lighting (C6 RCBO) had tripped a couple of times prior to him changing these 2 bulbs after which there has been no more tripping.

Does this sound like the ballast itself is at fault? I think I already know the answer to this but would you think the original fitter have been stupid enough to encase the ballast within the pillar or even under the driveway for some reason?
The bulbs in question are these http://www.venturelightingeurope.com/products/whitelux-plus-lamps/13742.html which appear to be a direct swap for HPS lamps using the original ballast

 

[plugsandsparks]

Could also be an igniter somewhere, one things for sure, they wont work without. It must be somewhere

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Hello
I attended a customers property today to check on a fault with some latern courtyard lamps. There are 4 lamps and the centre 2 are not working. The customer had replaced the bulbs himself but there was no joy.

As a first port of call I swapped the 2 working bulbs from the outer fittings with the unworking bulbs to rule out bulb failure. Once swapped the bulbs are fine with the outer two fittings but still no light on the centre 2.

I used a lightmate on the centre fitting and voltage is present at 230v. The customer was not present in the property at the time so I could only access the yard however there is no sign of any ballast anywhere near the lamp. The lanterns are attached to a high wall (perhaps 20ft) with pillars which the lights sit on. The flex from the fitting simply disappers down inside the pillar. I have done work at his property before and there is a room containing all the consumer units, AV gear and switchgear for the property but I cannot for the life in me remember seeing any ballasts for sodium/halide lamps in there, just armoured cable for the courtyard lighting exiting the room underground.

I didn't have my multimeter with me so the only test I could run was that voltage was present and even to check the fitting was tight used a normal BC energy saver which lit in all fittings.

What should my next course of action be? I'm not going to lie I don't have a huge wealth of experience with arc lighting. The customer had reported that the RCBO supplying the courtyard lighting (C6 RCBO) had tripped a couple of times prior to him changing these 2 bulbs after which there has been no more tripping.

Does this sound like the ballast itself is at fault? I think I already know the answer to this but would you think the original fitter have been stupid enough to encase the ballast within the pillar or even under the driveway for some reason?
The bulbs in question are these Whitelux Plus Lamps - 13742 which appear to be a direct swap for HPS lamps using the original ballast

Can't you open up the pillar to check? First course of action methinks. And yes, I am Shakespeare.

 

[ray-bentos]

Opening the pillar is going to be a pain in the a**e but if it has to be done then it has to be done..... Whats the maximum distance from the lamp that the ballast/ignitor should be?

 

[socket2me]

Got to be an access panel at the bottom of the pillar??

 

[ray-bentos]

Got to be an access panel at the bottom of the pillar??

You would have thought so but no, its just a straight up piece of the wall, perhaps 15ft of sandstone block with a patio flag in top

 

[VoltzElectrical]

can't advise further without pictures of the fitting and what it's fitted to.

sorry.

 

[ian.settle1]

Could also be an igniter somewhere, one things for sure, they wont work without. It must be somewhere

Yes they will as the lamp could have an internal ignitor

 

[ray-bentos]

I'll try and get some pictures when I go back to the property but to be fair without actually 'breaking into anything' its going to be hard to see anything from the pictures. The light fittings are just lanterns over a bayonet cap fitment in the middle (all heavy duty external stuff). There is an adaptor to ES screw fitment with the bulbs in. The only 'electrical' connections in the lamp are 1mm flexible cable leaving the bulb fitting and going under the 'flag' at the top of the stone pillar.

The distance from the house is maybe 10M, even if the ballast was sited in the room with all switchgear would it work remotely like this? As stated before my experience with arc lighting is just fitting simple spotlights not using remote ballasts like this.

Would there be a test I could conduct at the fitting to confirm that indeed a ballast (or ignitor) was at fault before I have to start removing blocks or otherwise hunting for these?

 

[itselectric]

Are you sure the ballast and igniter are not concealed behind the silver reflector?
I am almost certain these lamps require an external igniter.

 

[Brightspark2]

Are you sure the ballast and igniter are not concealed behind the silver reflector?
I am almost certain these lamps require an external igniter.

Yep, the type of fitting I think your describing usually have the control gear behind the reflector.

Take the lamp out, unscrew the reflector and have a look...

 

[ray-bentos]

There is no reflector, the lamp looks like this:

The 'fitting' in the middle for the bulb is EXACTLY as shown in that picture and the only connection under the fitting is 1mm flexible cable that leads down into the pillar/wall to which it is fitted. There is nothing ballast or ignitor related within the lamp itself.

 

[Barry White]

Has it a bc to es40 adapter fitted and a self ballasted lamp ? if so the lamps you are fitting wont work.

see PREMIUM QUALITY SELF BALLASTED 250W METAL HALIDE LAMP E40 5000K TUBULAR FITTING | eBay

the above is just an example there are loads more types available and connect directly to 220v mains (dont need a ballast)

 

[ray-bentos]

Has it a bc to es40 adapter fitted and a self ballasted lamp ? if so the lamps you are fitting wont work.

see PREMIUM QUALITY SELF BALLASTED 250W METAL HALIDE LAMP E40 5000K TUBULAR FITTING | eBay

the above is just an example there are loads more types available and connect directly to 220v mains (dont need a ballast)

The customer refitted these new bulbs and for some reason described them as 'wrong' although couldn't tell me why?

The adaptors are BC - E27

There are 4 lamps and this problem is only affecting the inner 2, they are all the same although perhaps the outer two are ballasted and the inner two are not?? Swapping bulbs from the inner to the outer makes no odds, it's still the two outer lamps which remain lit. Strangely enough an energy saving CFL BC bulb works in all 4 lamps

 

[ian.settle1]

The customer refitted these new bulbs and for some reason described them as 'wrong' although couldn't tell me why?

The adaptors are BC - E27

There are 4 lamps and this problem is only affecting the inner 2, they are all the same although perhaps the outer two are ballasted and the inner two are not?? Swapping bulbs from the inner to the outer makes no odds, it's still the two outer lamps which remain lit. Strangely enough an energy saving CFL BC bulb works in all 4 lamps

That's because it's a normal bloody lampholder.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Is that picture of the actual lantern because that looks like a filament lamp.

 

[ray-bentos]

That's because it's a normal bloody lampholder.

So do normal bulbs work in ballasted fittings? Its not something I've ever really given any thought to....

Is that picture of the actual lantern because that looks like a filament lamp.

No, I haven't been back to the property yet thats the closest thing I could find online, the bulbs in question are definitely Metal Halide

 

[SparkyJoe]

No, I haven't been back to the property yet thats the closest thing I could find online, the bulbs in question are definitely Metal Halide[/QUOTE]

ITS A LAMP.

 

[Barry White]

[/QUOTE] ITS A LAMP.[/QUOTE]

Then what did Thomas Edison invent???????

Thomas Alva Edison (February 11, 1847 – October 18, 1931) was an American inventor and businessman. He developed many devices that greatly influenced life around the world, including the phonograph, the motion picture camera, and a long-lasting, practical electric light bulb.

From Thomas Edison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


lamp (læmp)n1.a. any of a number of devices that produce illumination: an electric lamp; a gas lamp; an oil lamp.
b. (in combination): lampshade.

2. a device for holding one or more electric light bulbs: a table lamp.
3. a vessel in which a liquid fuel is burned to supply illumination
4. any of a variety of devices that produce radiation, esp for therapeutic purposes: an ultraviolet lamp.

From lamp - definition of lamp by The Free Dictionary


cables or wires next???

 

[ray-bentos]

Please, I just need some opinions off more experienced forum members not a lesson on the terminology 'lamp'
"Please be reminded that if your reply can't help the original poster, it may be seen as pointless and taking the thread off topic."

 

[VoltzElectrical]

ITS A LAMP.[/QUOTE]

Then what did Thomas Edison invent???????

Thomas Alva Edison (February 11, 1847 – October 18, 1931) was an American inventor and businessman. He developed many devices that greatly influenced life around the world, including the phonograph, the motion picture camera, and a long-lasting, practical electric light bulb.

From Thomas Edison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


lamp (læmp)n1.a. any of a number of devices that produce illumination: an electric lamp; a gas lamp; an oil lamp.
b. (in combination): lampshade.

2. a device for holding one or more electric light bulbs: a table lamp.
3. a vessel in which a liquid fuel is burned to supply illumination
4. any of a variety of devices that produce radiation, esp for therapeutic purposes: an ultraviolet lamp.

From lamp - definition of lamp by The Free Dictionary


cables or wires next???[/QUOTE]

Quite. No-one ever had a 'light lamp moment' did they?

Anyway, it looks like the OP has a strange setup. I've had it before now where 35/55w sox ballasts are outputting 230v to the lamp holder but the lamp won't work because the strike-up voltage part has failed. I presume the ballast has some sort of built in ignitor.

In this scenario, a normal lamp would work as in the OP's case where all 4 will light up with a different lamp.

I sounds then as if the ignitor has failed. By the way, we have victorian style lanterns where all the gear tray components are in the area of the lantern above the lamp like the one you pictured. Access is by tilting the top part back on the hinge. In ours though, the lamp holder is the reverse of the one pictured, i.e. held from above.

 

[Barry White]

ok you have 4 bulbs/lamps do they all work in the 2 outside fitting (all 4) and none of the 4 works in the inner 2 lamps?

The installation looks like it had standard incandescents fitted and then retro fitted with metal halide using the bc to es adaptor.

Earlier question "would an energy saver work after a ballast ??" not tried this but think it would with the old wirewound type without igniter (will give me someting to try out at work)

 

[VoltzElectrical]

This is what we use, sorry i couldn't find a picture of the smaller version.

They usually show 230v output if the internal 'ignitor' part has failed, which won't strike a sox lamp, but would illuminate any lamp not requiring a strike voltage.

 

[ray-bentos]

ok you have 4 bulbs/lamps do they all work in the 2 outside fitting (all 4) and none of the 4 works in the inner 2 lamps?
The installation looks like it had standard incandescents fitted and then retro fitted with metal halide using the bc to es adaptor.
Earlier question "would an energy saver work after a ballast ??" not tried this but think it would with the old wirewound type without igniter (will give me someting to try out at work)

That's correct, all bulbs work in the outer 2 fittings, none of the 4 work in the inner pair.

Quite. No-one ever had a 'light lamp moment' did they?
Anyway, it looks like the OP has a strange setup. I've had it before now where 35/55w sox ballasts are outputting 230v to the lamp holder but the lamp won't work because the strike-up voltage part has failed. I presume the ballast has some sort of built in ignitor.
In this scenario, a normal lamp would work as in the OP's case where all 4 will light up with a different lamp.
I sounds then as if the ignitor has failed. By the way, we have victorian style lanterns where all the gear tray components are in the area of the lantern above the lamp like the one you pictured. Access is by tilting the top part back on the hinge. In ours though, the lamp holder is the reverse of the one pictured, i.e. held from above.

Just to confirm again there is absolutely no gear within the lantern fitting whatsoever, the lid requires removal to get to the bulbs and 'underneath' is just empty space with flexible cable.
With no apparent (easy) access to the ballast gear I'm half tempted to just fit self ballasted bulbs to all 4 fittings to solve the issue. What is everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[ray-bentos]

Alright I've actually found a picture I didn't realise I had on my phone of the lanterns on the pillars but it doesn't really show anything electrical

 

[VoltzElectrical]

No such thing as 'self ballasted bulbs' as far as i am aware. Self-igniting SON lamps, yes. If you have voltage at the lamp holder, you could fit a ballast and a self ignitor, but You would be better off tracing the circuit out in the long run, as failed components still in circuit can interfere with it. Go back to the origin of the circuit and follow it all through.

In my opinion, you should leave a serviceable installation behind you, even if it means remedying other sparks questionable methods. You can always leave drawings of what you have installed at the distribution centre in a poly pocket. Take some photos. What happens after is up to the customer.

 

[Barry White]

No such thing as 'self ballasted bulbs' as far as i am aware. Self-igniting SON lamps, yes. If you have voltage at the lamp holder, you could fit a ballast and a self ignitor, but You would be better off tracing the circuit out in the long run, as failed components still in circuit can interfere with it. Go back to the origin of the circuit and follow it all through.

In my opinion, you should leave a serviceable installation behind you, even if it means remedying other sparks questionable methods. You can always leave drawings of what you have installed at the distribution centre in a poly pocket. Take some photos. What happens after is up to the customer.

There is and they have been around a few years now see Self Ballasted Mercury Lamp 250 watt ES | Eliptical Shape - BLT Direct

but as the OP has tried all the bulbs it seems there is a ballast hidden somewhere.

 

[ray-bentos]

What is the maximum distance from the lamp that the ballast can be fitted? From the pictures above I'm guessing the ballasts are either inside the 'pillars' or in the room with the switchgear for the property (which is over 10M away).

I've worked in this room before and have never noticed any ballasts (the property is pretty much wired for sound, literally...) but I guess some digging may unearth something. From my recollection the courtyard lighting circuit is controlled by a photocell but the actual load wiring leaves the DB in SWA which goes under the driveway.

 

[ian.settle1]

Why don't you just admit you do not know what you are doing and get an electrician in to do the work.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Why don't you just admit you do not know what you are doing and get an electrician in to do the work.

That's bit harsh dude.

The OP is simply trying to make sense of a setup someone else has installed. Who knows what the installing spark has done.

What would you do in this situation then? I'd love to know 'cos apart from a few things I know about lighting through my day job, I think I'd be head scratching too.

 

[ray-bentos]

Why don't you just admit you do not know what you are doing and get an electrician in to do the work.

Why whenever anyone asks for advice about a topic which they may be less than expert is the standard response from some people to flame and try and put the poster down? Surely the whole purpose of this forum is to share knowledge?

 

[ray-bentos]

That's bit harsh dude.
The OP is simply trying to make sense of a setup someone else has installed. Who knows what the installing spark has done.
What would you do in this situation then? I'd love to know 'cos apart from a few things I know about lighting through my day job, I think I'd be head scratching too.

Care to share the few things you learnt from your day job?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Care to share the few things you learnt from your day job?

If you have read any of my posts, they are all things I have learned from my day job. I don't get paid to post here dude, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I'm going to withdraw from this thread now because I feel my input has been exceeded and as the dragons would say, 'I'm out'.

Be great to hear if this gets resolved, but I'm not holding my breath.

Nighty
x

 

[plugsandsparks]

Yes they will as the lamp could have an internal ignitor

Also - smart arse

 

[plugsandsparks]

I have done a lamp post with a 70W Son (I) with ballast about 8M away if that helps. No idea how far I could have run one but this one was installed in a shed / workshop with SWA from shed to lamp post. Let us know where the hell it is.