Self Build Advice Please - consumer units, sockets & switches...

[janner43]

Back to a sensible question - you made a statement about the property being "sealed" or similar - how do you get rid of unwanted moisture?

and what happens when all the air has been used up, and he's breathing in CO2?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation

Heat Recovery Ventilation the best way to remove and replace stale, moist and unwanted air from your home

:waving:

 

[telectrix]

I think people need to look towards these new ideas rather than ridiculing them and sticking to how things have always been done. If we didn't progress like this then we'd still be living in houses with no cavities and no loft insulation. And we'd still have houses full of 60W and 10W lamps. Daz

best thing since the hindenburg. a bit of savings through heat loss. £3000 to replace corroded wall ties and repoint half the house.

 

[janner43]

best thing since the hindenburg. a bit of savings through heat loss. £3000 to replace corroded wall ties and repoint half the house.

You got that right. On south / western UK exposures, ie West Scotland, West Wales, Cornwall and parts of Devon no-one should install cavity insulation - especially if they have exposed brick.

In other parts of the U.K. it should be alright, but I could take you to two houses I personally know of where the houses are colder after the cavity insulation. One has failing internal plaster because of penetrating damp. The cavity insulation gets wet, the house gets cold.

Not good

 

[sean_ork]

Yet builders are still throwing up shoeboxes faced with brick, just enough FG to satisfy the building inspector, dense block inner, and glueing PB to it.

That's so 1960s

 

[Leesparkykent]

Yet builders are still throwing up shoeboxes faced with brick, just enough FG to satisfy the building inspector, dense block inner, and glueing PB to it.

That's so 1960s

More often your find they are now mostly timber framed. As they are manufactured off site.

 

[sean_ork]

More often your find they are now mostly timber framed. As they are manufactured off site.

Most of them are up here, the kit goes up in two days, but even then there's still the daft preference for a brick outer, sticking to what they know.

 

[davesparks]

Yet builders are still throwing up shoeboxes faced with brick, just enough FG to satisfy the building inspector, dense block inner, and glueing PB to it.

That's so 1960s

That's because the overriding decider in mass built houses is cost, the less it costs to build the more money the developer makes.

Houses built for an individual customer can be built far better if the customer is willing to pay for it, but again people don't like to spend money on sensible things.
It's the same situation we come across as electricians, people begrudge spending a few hundred on improving electrical safety but will happily spend thousands on fancy gadgets to plug in to the ancient sockets etc.

 

[davesparks]

Most of them are up here, the kit goes up in two days, but even then there's still the daft preference for a brick outer, sticking to what they know.

But a brick skin has worked for us for hundreds of years, so we kind of like it.
It does beg the question of what alternatives are readily available?

 

[sean_ork]

That's because the overriding decider in mass built houses is cost, the less it costs to build the more money the developer makes.

Houses built for an individual customer can be built far better if the customer is willing to pay for it, but again people don't like to spend money on sensible things.
It's the same situation we come across as electricians, people begrudge spending a few hundred on improving electrical safety but will happily spend thousands on fancy gadgets to plug in to the ancient sockets etc.

Yep, developers don't care what the ongoing costs are to keep it warm, as long as it takes longer than 10 years to fall apart they are alright jack.

 

[Octopus]

That's because the overriding decider in mass built houses is cost, the less it costs to build the more money the developer makes.

Houses built for an individual customer can be built far better if the customer is willing to pay for it, but again people don't like to spend money on sensible things.
It's the same situation we come across as electricians, people begrudge spending a few hundred on improving electrical safety but will happily spend tens of thousands on a fancy new kitchen

corrected that for you!

 

[Andy78]

Yep, developers don't care what the ongoing costs are to keep it warm, as long as it takes longer than 10 years to fall apart they are alright jack.

And even if there are problems within the 10 years they still don't give a .....
Every new build house less than 10 years old that I have been round to in the last 4 years have been in some sort of years long dispute with the developer.

One of the electrically related ones was a couple who had requested chrome accessories throughout as an upgrade to the standard white plastic. The guy who fitted them was apparently a site sweeper upper. Yeah you guessed it, he chopped all the CPCs off behind all the switches.

 

[Midwest]

Lived in a new house since the late eighties, standard brick construction, cavity (now full of insulation). Never had any issues with it, apart from it wasn't big enough. Gas central heating, and hot water. Not a log cabin in the forest by a lake. Wouldn't float Kevin McCloud's boat, but I couldn't afford his prices.

 

[Midwest]

I'm all for new building designs & systems. My eldest has a heat recovery ventilation system in his flat, not very impressed, albeit probable bodged in. Noisy main box, fan boost for kitchen, bathroom is pants, ensuite is always full of moisture after the shower is used. And I'm used to having the bedroom window open at night, not just to get rid of the fumes!

 

[M-Ty]

I have been abusing a 9.5-kW Redring Powerstream as my whole-house water heater (including bath, takes 20-25 minutes to fill) for 20 years.
A single 12-kW one would be even better. It is fine for washing-up. There would be no need for a separate electric shower. Position it nearest the most frequently-used outlet to minimise waste of cold "dead" water and plumb it to everything else in well-insulated microbore for the same reason would be my recommendation.

 

[davesparks]

Yep, developers don't care what the ongoing costs are to keep it warm, as long as it takes longer than 10 years to fall apart they are alright jack.

Actually it only needs to stand for 7 years before the Nancy warranty runs out [emoji12]

 

[janner43]

I have been abusing a 9.5-kW Redring Powerstream as my whole-house water heater (including bath, takes 20-25 minutes to fill) for 20 years.
A single 12-kW one would be even better. It is fine for washing-up. There would be no need for a separate electric shower. Position it nearest the most frequently-used outlet to minimise waste of cold "dead" water and plumb it to everything else in well-insulated microbore for the same reason would be my recommendation.

Now that is very interesting indeed. Thank you for posting.

I have decided that 3 x 12kW heaters is most definitely overkill & an unnecessary design "risk" and have arranged for them to be returned. Fortunately I am still within the window to receive a full refund on them.

I'm keeping the Gröhe shower, mind you

I'm minded to get 2 x 9.5kW Redring RP1s one for the two basins in the bathroom & one for the utility room & cloakroom.

The kitchen is another story...

Currently I'm thinking this way...
1) Hand clothes washing in the utility will only happen once a week at most. The cloakroom might get used once or twice a day.
2) The basins in the bathroom, certainly for 6 months of the year get used during "non-daylight" hours exclusively and for the shorter days, only once a day when it is light. IE 75% of their use pa will be in the non-daylight hours.

As a result, none of that hot water usage is going to make much use of the Solar PV

3) The kitchen, however, is likely to see 90% of its use during daylight hours, and "she who must be obeyed" is quite concerned that she has hot (50° - 60°) water for pre washing greasy dishes if required. In view of that, we might end up with a 5litre unvented 2/3kW heater for the kitchen. Stiebel-Eltron do one as do Hyco. In both cases, they say they take 12 minutes to heat from cold and then use 500 watts in 24hours to keep hot. That sort of usage is going to make full use of the Solar PV while being negligible as far as design impact is concerned.

 

[1Justin]

Hi Janner..If you are still here.
I got to this thread late. I've been fitting out all the electrics in a Passivhaus this year. I have also installed MVHR. i completely (almost) understand where you are.
I have failed though, reading through things, why you see the need for instant water heating? -The future for our energy grid will only be possible with storage for smoothing. That may be batteries, but it will most certainly require hot water tanks since heating loads are so large. (Obviously crap for all those households which only have the space for stupid combi gas boilers, but they'll feel the pain one day) - So storage also means hot water tanks.

Plus you have PV, - Only a financial consideration, but why not make use of that with a diverter, rather than exporting it at 4p a unit? Solar thermal is also very good indeed. It's not often installed but is about three or four times as efficient as current technology PV (area for area on your roof)

 

[sparksburnout]

Blimey, i have just spent far too long reading this thread. I don't like the sound of this sealed up clinical environment too much, i bet all you can hear most of the time is "shut that bloody door". All this rubbish about not using gas appliances in 20 years time, what a load of crap, what do some people think the average person lives in in the country? Me, I like sitting in front of my roaring open fire, with plenty of stored hot water and a few draughts here and there to keep all the moisture and damp out. The way some people talk you might as well live in a space station. I wouldn't want to rely on me and the missus generating enough heat to keep warm some nights, well most nights, all this smacks of some grand designs none sense to me, designer crap for boring folks with nothing else to do.

 

[janner43]

Hi Janner..If you are still here.
I got to this thread late. I've been fitting out all the electrics in a Passivhaus this year. I have also installed MVHR. i completely (almost) understand where you are.
I have failed though, reading through things, why you see the need for instant water heating? -The future for our energy grid will only be possible with storage for smoothing. That may be batteries, but it will most certainly require hot water tanks since heating loads are so large. (Obviously crap for all those households which only have the space for stupid combi gas boilers, but they'll feel the pain one day) - So storage also means hot water tanks.

Plus you have PV, - Only a financial consideration, but why not make use of that with a diverter, rather than exporting it at 4p a unit? Solar thermal is also very good indeed. It's not often installed but is about three or four times as efficient as current technology PV (area for area on your roof)

Hi Justin,

Glad someone else actually understands what I'm on about - clearly not everyone does or even understands the remotest concept of not wasting the resources we have...

I'd opt for battery storage if it wasn't so expensive. When it comes to immersion heaters I loath them. They seem to me to be a daft way of heating lots of water that we'll never use. As I have said previously, clothes washing happens in a washing machine, dishes in a dishwasher. The amount of hot water we will use in a day isn't likely to be more than 30 litres on a "bad" day. The smallest type of tank is normally 4 times that size!!

No, the water heating is an experiment, I'll grant you, but I believe that the concept is sound. When it comes to export quantity, I am hoping to have a Smart Meter if I can get one, so the typical estimate of 50% for the export tariff shouldn't apply.

Our budget isn't endless and I have tried to only spec the tech that actually works with a cost-benefit analysis - which is why, even though we are in the most expensive area of the U.K. for water, we are not having rainwater reclamation for use in the house. The numbers are just not worth it - nowhere near.

Cheers

 

[Leesparkykent]

Hi Justin,

Glad someone else actually understands what I'm on about - clearly not everyone does or even understands the remotest concept of not wasting the resources we have...

I'd opt for battery storage if it wasn't so expensive. When it comes to immersion heaters I loath them. They seem to me to be a daft way of heating lots of water that we'll never use. As I have said previously, clothes washing happens in a washing machine, dishes in a dishwasher. The amount of hot water we will use in a day isn't likely to be more than 30 litres on a "bad" day. The smallest type of tank is normally 4 times that size!!

No, the water heating is an experiment, I'll grant you, but I believe that the concept is sound. When it comes to export quantity, I am hoping to have a Smart Meter if I can get one, so the typical estimate of 50% for the export tariff shouldn't apply.

Our budget isn't endless and I have tried to only spec the tech that actually works with a cost-benefit analysis - which is why, even though we are in the most expensive area of the U.K. for water, we are not having rainwater reclamation for use in the house. The numbers are just not worth it - nowhere near.

Cheers

30liters on a bad day....do you an your partner not shower at all then?