That's not good news Gavin a lot of the guys on the gas forum I go on are installing as many as 5 boilers a week and I doubt many could could wait 90 days for payment.
that's if they get paid at all, sounds likethis firm is just bumping each new fitter that comes along, then dangling the carrot of 5 installs a week in front of the next mug...

should have had the same emphasis on short maximium payment terms as has apparently been going on in the public sector in recent years - one of the stupid things about out sourcing it all to the private sector so that normal public sector procurement rules such as this don't apply (although obviously those same procurement rules are a complete nightmare in other respects).
 
Was talking to someone I know who is a private landlord with quite a few tenants in receipt of benefits. He will get new boilers FOC for a number of his properties under ECO but delivered through large organisations. He knows that if he had to pay himself, the same work would be a whole lot cheaper. So these companies are playing it both ends. The whole programme stinks. It is time to get rid of these middle men and get their ugly snouts out of the trough.

Total revision of the Green Deal is the only way to sort this.
 
This sounds bad news all round. I am pas aproved but am unsure now. Is there no company that is good to deal with provider wise or are they all a shower of bad stuff
 
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sure there must be good companies around as well... there's a couple posting on this thread, one not that far off from you.
 
The £20m community GD fund launched made me laugh today. Innovative new ideas of going street by street in an area, cos that's never been done successfully before has it! Lots & lots of talk about "blending" ECO & GD giving some credit to what Worcester was saying a couple of weeks ago about the GD & ECO being merged. The best bit was that you are measured on GDP take up on the one hand but on the other it's not all about GDPs. Total mess.

The blog about why the last report released from DECC about house prices and EPC's being linked was even more shambolic. I'm glad we're not involved but I really feel for those who took the plunge & spent time and money getting ready for it.
 
the late payments mentioned are down to the utility companys not sorting the backlog quickly enough
most installers will suffer from this.
 
Yup that's what they've been saying since 1998 when they started having to pay for this sort of thing under SOP. You'd have thought they would have got that backlog sorted by now! Just remember where the power (and cash) lies. As long as you have the cash to bankroll the utilities (tail wagging dog) then you've got a chance of outliving those with little or no funds.
 
Ive just got off the phone with the energy saving trust and they say ECO only covers gas boilers and insulation. Is that right?
 
no. Though that could be right in your circumstances maybe as tehre are different strands of funding that different situations are eligible for or not
 
ECO consists of three parts.

1. Carbon Emission Reduction Obligation (CERO) which is for insulation of solid wall and hard-to-treat cavity wall properties or connection to a district heating system (in association with the insulation). Available to anyone with an eligible property as determined by a chartered surveyor.
2. Carbon Saving Community Obligation (CSCO) for people who live in specific geographic locations (there is a list of these) and covers insulation and associated connection to a district heating system. Part of this obligation is for people who are members of the Affordable Warmth Group.
3. Home Heating Cost Reduction Obligation (HHCRO) is to provide measures to homeowners who are in receipt of specific welfare benefits (including members of the Affordable Warmth Group).

A full list of the eligible measures for each part is available here: http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainabil...st of Measures and Additional Information.pdf

Under HHCRO virtually all of the measures are eligible where they result in cost savings for the homeowner or improve their ability to affordably heat their home. Being a homeowner is critical for HHCRO; it is not available for tenants. CERO and CSCO are available to anyone who is a domestic energy user.
 
Thanks Fellas.

If anyone covers the North West of England and fits boilers etc could you send me a message and I'll pass on the details.
 
Not having a lot of luck trying to get a decent rate from providers that are accepting new installers. Off for a meeting with Green Deal Central tomorrow so I hope a good deal can be made.
If not then I don't know what to do, we currently have 5 jobs ready to roll and around 30+ jobs pre qualified ready to survey and EPC.
 
Not having a lot of luck trying to get a decent rate from providers that are accepting new installers. Off for a meeting with Green Deal Central tomorrow so I hope a good deal can be made.
If not then I don't know what to do, we currently have 5 jobs ready to roll and around 30+ jobs pre qualified ready to survey and EPC.

Pm me matey
 
Just as an update - we are now getting funding through Green Deal Central fitting 2-5 boilers per week. Were having to turn some jobs down due to low funding though.
 
We have funding for HHCRO - CERO & CSCO if you want to see if we can help you on the funding side John.
 
Thanks Eco Deal, Just HHCRO - boilers I'm dealing with at present. Off out on a solar pv install today, pm me your number and I'll try and remember to give you a ring tomorrow.
 
DECC consultation on changes to ECO closes 16 April - https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/the-future-of-the-energy-company-obligation

One of the main changes that could help homeowners will be the inclusion of loft and cavity wall insulation under CERO.

Crucially it is clear that standard insulation opportunities can, at the moment, deliver carbon
savings at lower cost per tonne in ECO subsidy than harder to treat measures. In the context of
immediate concerns about the overall costs of ECO and its impact upon consumer bills, it is
more difficult to justify a policy which excludes these measures. The Government therefore
proposes that loft insulation (including both virgin and top-up loft insulation) and standard cavity
wall insulation measures installed from April 2014 should be eligible as primary measures under
CERO. Therefore, the current differentiation between hard-to-treat and standard cavities would
be removed, with all forms of cavity wall potentially eligible for treatment under CERO

We would propose that the eligibility rules, as set out under the current legislation, on measures
under CERO would continue to apply to the new primary measures. So to qualify under CERO
loft and cavity wall insulation will have to:
a. be a recommended measure;
b. improve the insulation properties of the premises; and
c. comply with PAS 2030.

For loft insulation as a new primary measure Government recognise that a de-minimis level for
the depth and area of the insulation is appropriate to ensure optimal treatment prior to triggering
secondary measures. We therefore propose that to support the ‘secondary measure’ status of
another measure loft insulation must be:
a. installed in lofts which currently have less than or equal to 150mm of insulation (to a
level of at least 250mm of insulation); and
b. installed to at least 50 per cent of the total area of the loft.

For cavity wall insulation as a new primary measure we propose that a de-minimis level for the
area of the insulation is appropriate prior to triggering secondary measures. We therefore
propose that to support the ‘secondary measure’ status of another measure cavity wall
insulation must be installed to at least 50 per cent of the total exterior-facing walls of the
premises.
 
Great news?-------but how do we go about delivering it!--- 120 Million is a useful amount but are the rates for measures listed yet?

it appears you qualify for a £1000 if you fit two measures and an additional £500 if you have only been in the house a year. Then you can get up to £6000 if you install external wall insulation. So hey presto that's where the £7500 headline figure comes from.

I though external wall was available under CERO funding anyway and is not means tested. Originally this pot of money was £790 million which I understand remains largely unspent. So are funds just being moved around?
 
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I don't know if I'm being incredibly dense but where's the detail for this? How do I help my customers access it?
 
Did you scroll down? :biggrin:

1. The Green Deal Home Improvement Fund (GDHIF) will be available to householders in England & Wales from June 2014.

5. Householders must take the following steps to apply for and claim their GDHIF payment:

  • have a valid Green Deal Assessment Report or EPC which must have been carried out in the two years prior to application;
  • apply for measures as recommended on their assessment report or EPC;
  • register for their GDHIF voucher when the application website and telephone hotline number go live in early June;
  • once they have received their voucher, customers must have the improvements installed by a registered Green Deal Installer or Provider within six months;
  • once the work has been completed, submit their voucher – countersigned by the Green Deal Installer or Provider – with copies of the invoice, PAS2030 Claim(s) of Conformity, and their Green Deal Assessment Report invoice.

Once the GDHIF administrator has validated the voucher, customers will receive payment in ten working days if all documentation is submitted correctly.


 
Thanks Ted, I did see this but the first customer I sent it to immediately commented that there wasn't anyone in our area, so I can't see it benefiting anyone local to us too soon.

So the work still has to be completed by the Green Deal Provider/Installer?? Who after many layers of bureaucracy could end up the same price after the voucher as Joe Bloggs down the road who's served the community well for the last 20 years.

It's been a long week - maybe I'm just too cynical.
 
@SRE that's very true for some of the work - the big one in this is EWI at 6k and 75%, that's a shed load of contribution and effectively means that for a mid terrace or a small end-terrace they only need to find 25% of the install - easy to bung on a Green Deal Finance Plan.

The big winners are going to be the landlords with old housing stock, - and at the small contribution now needed, the tenant won't mind.

Why have the govt done this - simples
1) The cashback scheme finishes at the end of June, and the system still hasn't taken off
2) Nearly all the Energy companies have met or are near to meeting their HHCRO targets for 2014/15 already, so no more free boilers.
3) The ECO funding that was supposed to have helped measures like this meet the Golden Rule, never materialised, and won't in the foreseeable future
4) There are elections looming and the don't want the Green Deal to become a (dead) White Elephant.

So the customer gets their GDAR for free, can choose a couple of measures and get £1k back, which is more than they could have got on the old cashback scheme.

Plus it now has a sensible timespan instead of a 3 month knee jerk kick start, so the likes of Mark Group, can put a marketing and sales strategy back together, and come next spring the Govt can announce great successes.
 
Thanks Gordon - so if you want to have your solid wall insulation done but don't want to have a GD finance plan can you still do that and just have the cashback? I just can't seem to find any detail in writing about what and how people will be eligible, other than the bit Ted's shown above which does provide some basic detail but not much. I currently have 3 customers in detached houses who need ewi but can't even get someone to visit them - all rural and no GDP or installers anywhere near us.
 
Thanks Gordon - so if you want to have your solid wall insulation done but don't want to have a GD finance plan can you still do that and just have the cashback?

Yes,


I just can't seem to find any detail in writing about what and how people will be eligible, other than the bit Ted's shown above which does provide some basic detail but not much. I currently have 3 customers in detached houses who need ewi but can't even get someone to visit them - all rural and no GDP or installers anywhere near us.

The official process is:
Contact a GDP, who will arrange the GDAR and quotes for you.

See my extended reply in the Green Lounge.
 
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SRE, AIUI the GDHIF work doesn't have to be done under a GD Finance Plan but it must be carried out by a GD Installer/Provider. So if there aren't any prepared to work in your area I can't see that this will help.
 
It may encourage some local installers to go down that route though :-) sometimes they have to be actually shown how the process works and how they will benefit before they will commit. We had a lot of interested installers in GD but none of the could see the logic in the GDF - in common with most of the country!!
 
Ok so were looking to install a boiler's that has Gas flue heat recovery built in so we can offer our customers the GDHIF Cash Back. Has anyone any idea what triggers FGHR to appear as a recommendation on the EPC ?
 
It would have to appear on the Green Deal Assessment, not the EPC. You would need to check on its qualification as a GD measure in the property in question.

From my experience of these things, they are hardly worth the effort. Last time I talked to Worcester Bosch, they felt the gains were so marginal as not to be worthwhile.

One system I saw specified on a new build to meet SAP was so complicated as to beggar belief. Extra insulation would have been cheaper and far more effective.
 
I was under the impression that the GDHIF accepted EPC recommendations as well as GDAR recommendations.
I have EPC's where it has recommended FGHR but usually only for properties that have a none condensing combi fitted already.

The boiler with FGHR built in is the Ideal Logic CODE and will cost £390+vat more than a Ideal Logic. Are you saying it would be cheaper to install one of the insulation methods instead to meet the 2 measure requirement ?
 
Insulation is always going to be the most effective thing to do. To put it in perspective, that kind of money would buy nearly 40sqM of 100mm Kingspan, Celotex or similar. The reduction in heat loss would be far greater than the marginal savings of FGHR over a modern condensing boiler. You also end up needing a smaller boiler as the heat load is less. Savings are independent of heating method. The phrase is fabric first, or in terms of solar, 'insulate before you generate'.

We only ever fit Worcester Bosch boilers when doing renovation work or as part of an upgrade alongside solar thermal, so am unable to comment on Ideal Logic.

Insulation added internally can be disruptive in older properties where there is no cavity, especially if there are fancy cornices. Plain ones are no problem. Best time to do it is when a room is being redecorated. Unless it is a shoe box (which older properties tend not to be), no one is going to miss 4 inches off the room size. It is quick to remove skirtings, picture rails etc, install sheets of insulated plasterboard, tape them and reinstate. Only problem is you need a GD installer to do it if you wish to benefit from any offers available. It is often cheaper and more cost effective to simply get on with it using local trades people.

It is easy to get tied up in 'techy' solutions, when the old fashioned boring ones are the way to go. We are progressively improving the thermal performance of our 1929 (could have been built in 1850) stone walled and dry lined house using this approach. As they say by the inch its a cinch, by the yard its hard.
 
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