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Lister1987

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Browsing through t'internet on the crapper like I do, I thought I'd look as dses.uk and noticed he had a section on condemning/isolating unsafe works and how we have no legal power to do so (unlike GasSafe et all who apparently do (Gas Act?).

Got me thinking surely we do have a legal obligation to isolate/lock-off or otherwise make-safe dangerous works? Much like how if a car goes for an MOT it shouldn't leave the test centre if it fails anpt on safety critical devices (brakes/seatbelt).

Sure you can try and palm off your obligations on paper i.e "I advised me Smith that the Installation should not be used, the Installation was de-energised but no lockouts were installed because we have no legal right to do so" but I really can't see that holding water in court - I could be wrong?

C1s are another, given the severity of them surely if it requires locking off until it can be fixed then the spark has the right to do so (but not hold the client to random to guarantee they get the work)?

What's the offical lines? EAWR/HASAWA stipulation?
 
Usual procedure if a dangerous situation is identified is to rectify or isolate with clients consent. Without client consenting then a written notice should be issued such as an Electrical Danger Notice and if any work is being carried out it should cease. Beyond that we have no power to cut off anyones electrical supply and nor should we have. We are not the Electrical Police.
 
Gassafe registered persons DO NOT have any legal power to turn off the gas supply or isolate any appliance without the owner / responsible persons permission.

The Gas Transporter, Cadent / Nat Grid gas etc do have and will investigate if a Gassafe Engineer reports an unsafe issue that they are unable to isolate
 
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I think the difference is... A simple gas leak has the potential to create an explosion that could bring a house down (and has done on many occasions)... but a live cable blowing in the breeze could be there for ever and not cause an issue !
 
Power to isolate supplies would undoubtedly be utterly abused by some individuals It would never work.
"I know you are 95 and it's minus 10 outside Mrs Smith, but that plug really is absolutely lethal. Only answer is a full rewire, £9000 pounds will cover it or I'll have to cut you off and it'll be after Christmas before I can come back...shall we go to your bank now?"
 
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noticed he had a section on condemning/isolating unsafe works and how we have no legal power to do so (unlike GasSafe et all who apparently do (Gas Act?).

Got me thinking surely we do have a legal obligation to isolate/lock-off or otherwise make-safe dangerous works? Much like how if a car goes for an MOT it shouldn't leave the test centre if it fails anpt on safety critical devices (brakes/seatbelt).

Gas safe registered people can't cut off the gas without your permission, but if you refuse permission they can call the gas supplier and they will cut it off, with the aid of the police or by digging up the street to access the gas main if necessary.

An MOT station can't, as far as I know, refuse to give back your car if it fails, this would be a criminal offence on their part.

If you as an electrician isolate, cut off or in any way interfere with an electrical installation without the owners permission then you could be guilty of an offence, also you could be liable for any injury, damage or loss caused as a result.
 
I am only involved in industrial installation and machine control.

however if I am working on a machine and it is unsafe, I will put a lock and a notice on it preventing it from being energised.
that lock and notice will stay on the machine even if I don't get the job to fix it.
I will always leave it in a safe condition.
I simply hand the key and a copy of the notice to the person who called me in.
9 times out of 10 I will get the job of fixing it after doing all the diagnostic works,
but if I don't I simply put £10 on the invoice for the padlock and key.

if you put only a note on the isolator, then you are not covering yourself in my opinion.
if someone gets killed or injured, it will be you who has to stand in court and explain why it was left in an unsafe condition.

don't assume people can or will read a notice before turning something on.
I also take a picture of the lock and notice before leaving site.

if the manager who I have given the key to decides that it is safe to unlock and turn on, that is their responsibility, and I would get an easy time of it in a court room.
 
I am only involved in industrial installation and machine control.

however if I am working on a machine and it is unsafe, I will put a lock and a notice on it preventing it from being energised.
that lock and notice will stay on the machine even if I don't get the job to fix it.
I will always leave it in a safe condition.
I simply hand the key and a copy of the notice to the person who called me in.
9 times out of 10 I will get the job of fixing it after doing all the diagnostic works,
but if I don't I simply put £10 on the invoice for the padlock and key.

if you put only a note on the isolator, then you are not covering yourself in my opinion.
if someone gets killed or injured, it will be you who has to stand in court and explain why it was left in an unsafe condition.

don't assume people can or will read a notice before turning something on.
I also take a picture of the lock and notice before leaving site.

if the manager who I have given the key to decides that it is safe to unlock and turn on, that is their responsibility, and I would get an easy time of it in a court room.
It's really no good working to those rules Mate. a permit to work regime should be in place, if you are working to those conditions, it just goes to show the disregard to safety the company, or yourself are adhering to, far to lax for my liking, as for the statement in your last paragraph, it is a statement of not understanding the rules regarding safe isolation, safe isolation under a P to W is a safer way of working. you might think you are covered , but where is the paper trail to prove your point in the case you describe it's non existent, I have been in this situation, and believe me Mr Kavanagh (the Judge) will not rule in your favour. You may think you are correct but unless a papertrail is evident, think on Mate. Until the work is complete, and safe to re energise Mate it's you responsibility like it or lump it. The jobs not complete until the paperwork is done.
 
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All health and safety reports must be in writing, but does not need to be on paper, a fax, text, email would all be OK, but a phone call is not.

I have been there after some thing went wrong, and some worker has said to the HSE he has phoned, talked or some other non written method to tell some one there was a problem, and they have ended up with a fine for not putting it in writing.

There is a big difference between seeing a danger, and energising a circuit with a danger, we must report a danger in writing, but we can't simply switch it off, but if we have switched it off, and we find a danger we can't switch it on either.

The domestic is very different to commercial we were always told we could countermand the managing director. But to make a domestic premises uninhabitable you have to find alternative accommodation although no one says who has to pay for it.

What one person considers dangerous others may not, there is a website called fatally flawed which points out the dangers of those silly plastic lumps that people stick into 13 amp sockets, but to walk into the doctors and to remove all found in the waiting room is not really what we should do. But doing a EICR in the doctors yes we should, but should we also be replacing all sockets that they were plugged into as they could have strained the sockets causing a bad connection and possible fire, I think not.

British law says if you commit a crime in order to stop a greater crime being committed is not considered as a crime, so if to stop bank robbers you block the road with your car, then you can't be done for illegal parking.

So if you remove the fuse when you find a smashed appliance with exposed live parts then you would not be done for vandalism or any other crime, but if the appliance was for example in a room already locked, then it would be very different. It would be for the courts to decide.
 
So, taking that a bit further, Stephen, are sparkys obliged to report unsafe or amateur work to the police when they find it?
Why the Police Joe ? H&S maybe
 
There must be a Licenceing body In Australia, it woud be they who investigate and if required prosecute.
H&S is Health and Safety Executive in the U.K, they investigate safety issues related to the workplace.
 
I don't know which authorities in Australia do that kind of thing, Pete. Since amateur work is proscribed by law, I thought it would be a matter for the police.

What's "H&S", mate?

H&S generally stands for health and safety, unfortunately this gets used to refer to a lot of different things so it's not always clear what is meant in a post.
H&S could refer to health and safety law
Or the Health and Safety executive (HSE)
Or the health and safety officer/department of a site
Or any number of other people/authorities who may or may not have anything to do with actual health and safety
 
I don't know which authorities in Australia do that kind of thing, Pete. Since amateur work is proscribed by law, I thought it would be a matter for the police.

What's "H&S", mate?
Health and Safety ( The Health and Safety Executive to be more precise)
 

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