Moved house into a disaster zone

[fourtytwo]

I had a nasty thought about a full blown IR test at 500V, might it finish off the VIR, as in cause it to breakdown whereas at 240Vrms its just hanging in there..... Phew what a nightmare.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

 

[pc1966]

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

 

[fourtytwo]

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

It has been partially rewired as nearly all the sockets have pvc 2.5mm in them although mostly red/black. The left hand side of the house however that is mainly the kitchen & one upstairs bedroom is VIR in the sockets. The 32A on the left is the ring with VIR that goes upstairs, however the socket in the bedroom above is pvc!! I would love to be able to see under the floors.
Moving to the right the 6A has two VIR lighting feeds in it, the brown is from a 6A flex to a 13A socket above the CU since removed entirely, it actually fell off the wall as it was glued on
Moving to the right again the 16A used to have one of the VIR lighting feeds in it, I moved it to the left for safety.
Moving to the right again the 32A is cooker.
Moving to the right again the 6A is a spur to only a bugler alarm.
Moving to the right again the 16A is a spur to the garage that runs along the outside wall low down (Uggghhh), I believe this was added when the previous owner encountered problems powering a hot tub from the garage as they had made such a mess of the ring wiring it very nearly caught fire (there was melting & smoke damage in one socket from arcing). Hopefully now there is no hot tub and the ring is repaired I can restore the garage to it's original internal spur and remove this particular abortion.
There is an extension, single story dining room added quite a long time ago and that is all in pvc.
The few (2-3) light switches I have examined in the rest of the house are all VIR.

 

[fourtytwo]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

Nope just the two 7/029 VIR's

 

[fourtytwo]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

You missed one of the browns, probably the one in the 6A with the two lighting VIR's.
It would be very nice to get an RCD fitted but I have already been trying to get a plumber for the last 2 weeks and frankly finding any professionals is very difficult. Unfortunatly we have landed from space on Mars as we are new to this area and know nobody, neighbours are also faced with similar problems.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I'm looking at this picture, so there are three cables into the 6A?

 

[fourtytwo]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

There was when I first arrived, the 6A flax to the double socket was in the B32 till I moved it to the adjacent B6, are you looking at the recent picture in this thread after the move was done or in one of my other threads before the move of that wire I wonder.
EDIT
Ahh yes that is the earlier more deadly picture!
If you look at the picture in post#39 this thread that nasty piece of 6A flex has now been removed completely along with the double socket it was feeding. And as described above the 2nd VIR lighting feed has been moved from a 16A to the same 6A as the other lighting feed.
Sorry for the confusion but there were some things that needed doing immediately!
EDIT EDIT
But looking at the closeup in post#17 I think you may be right, it does look like there are 3 pieces of VIR in the 32A, I dont want to disturb it to look closer but I assume this may be a local spur connection.

 

[fourtytwo]

I just had a fairly horrible thought, given the age of the original wiring and the fact that every socket found with VIR in it is a spur (only one cable in it) then maybe it was a radial installation that has been partially ringified!! Although I carried out a ring resistance test in a socket with two pvc's in it I have not tested the two (or three) VIR's at the CU mostly because I am worried to disturb them but........

 

[Mike Johnson]

That's the problem with not updating the picture in the next page, I had to go back a page and looked at the first picture I came across, this thread and the others you have running do not lend themselves to getting consistent answers, stick to one thread concerning one subject to make it easier for people to try and help.

 

[Dartlec]

I just had a fairly horrible thought, given the age of the original wiring and the fact that every socket found with VIR in it is a spur (only one cable in it) then maybe it was a radial installation that has been partially ringified!! Although I carried out a ring resistance test in a socket with two pvc's in it I have not tested the two (or three) VIR's at the CU mostly because I am worried to disturb them but........

That's not impossible, but it's probably one of the less important issues to be honest, particularly if you do your best to keep the load as low as you can on the affected circuits. Broken rings are pretty common and it's rare for it to cause huge problems with the cable, although in this case the cable may be falling apart of it's own accord just due to age.

Have you been able to take light switches off to see how the VIR is holding up at that point? In my experience, the place where VIR will disintegrate first is at light switches/sockets connections. If it's still holding up there, that may be a promising sign that it is not yet too bad - (though still a high priority to replace of course). If the sockets are in PVC, that does mean there are junctions somewhere that you can't inspect of course, and that may be the most problematic issue.

The only plus really about the pictures is that the insulation in the consumer unit appears to still be in place - I've seen much worse still live in a current property where the insulation is literally dust.

Does the cooker circuit have a socket on the isolation switch? If so I'd probably recommend running any high loads like kettles from that if you can.

Not sure how practical it might be to reduce the load on the VIR circuits as much as possible, even if it means extension leads from other parts of the house, which is something electricians normally avoid (except in their own houses, obviously!)

It's unfortunate that most tradesmen are very busy at the moment and thus hard to get hold of. The only real way to get a proper idea of how dangerous the installation currently is would be with careful testing.

I think in these circumstances, you may find a reasonable electrician willing to fit an up front RCD, having taken all the circumstances into account, and on the clear understanding that things will be corrected when they can. But I could also see ones who did not want to get involved unless it was to disconnect those circuits...

You would likely want to find an experienced electrician, perhaps one who has dealt with cabling like this before.

 

[LukeD]

I would have knocked £10k off when buying that ! Its always worth making sure about these things as Surveyors in suits wont have a clue

 

[Mike Johnson]

See post number 21 on page one.

 

[timhoward]

he left hand side of the house however that is mainly the kitchen & one upstairs bedroom is VIR in the sockets.

Then the kitchen should be a high priority to rewire. Short term a couple of 16A sockets under the CU and some site style daisy chained power for the kitchen appliances could be an option.

Moving to the right again the 6A is a spur to only a bugler alarm.

Very wise to get warning of a bugler in the vicinity, we all need our sleep especially in this heat!

 

[fourtytwo]

Thank you for all the replies, I will indeed keep to just the one thread, at first I thought they were separate issues but I have come to realise they are all aspects of the same horrid mess!!
The first job I did today was to separate the two 7/029 VIR's at the CU & test for ring completeness with nothing whatever connected to any outlet and they did form a ring so thank god not radials. I also tested the insulation at the low DVM voltage and got infinity on both L-N & L-E, so far so good. The trouble started when I decided to separate the two lighting lives for an insulation test and lo some of the insulation fell off thus confirming it is indeed in a parlous state.
This convinced me a rewire was imminent so I set about the laminate flooring in the bedroom above the CU, when some boards were lifted there were some unpleasant surprises given both the sockets in this room had previously been checked and found to be wired in pvc and hence put on the good list, well the pvc lasts for about a foot, just enough to get under the boards where it joins onto the rubber with JB's, I have never seen the like, this is either a fraudulent re-wire or the previous owner having a joke!!

There was just one bit of good news and that was the cabling up from the CU is in trunking so it should be possible to pull in new without having to chase the wall, I just hope this is also true for downstairs sockets, light switches etc

I will get a full re-wire underway as soon as I can find a qualified professional to do the job.
P.S. it's plasterboard not lathe & plaster as I thought it might be, I remember an earlier post about that.

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend

 

[Dartlec]

Thank you for all the replies, I will indeed keep to just the one thread, at first I thought they were separate issues but I have come to realise they are all aspects of the same horrid mess!!
The first job I did today was to separate the two 7/029 VIR's at the CU & test for ring completeness with nothing whatever connected to any outlet and they did form a ring so thank god not radials. I also tested the insulation at the low DVM voltage and got infinity on both L-N & L-E, so far so good. The trouble started when I decided to separate the two lighting lives for an insulation test and lo some of the insulation fell off thus confirming it is indeed in a parlous state.
This convinced me a rewire was imminent so I set about the laminate flooring in the bedroom above the CU, when some boards were lifted there were some unpleasant surprises given both the sockets in this room had previously been checked and found to be wired in pvc and hence put on the good list, well the pvc lasts for about a foot, just enough to get under the boards where it joins onto the rubber with JB's, I have never seen the like, this is either a fraudulent re-wire or the previous owner having a joke!!
View attachment 99600
View attachment 99601
There was just one bit of good news and that was the cabling up from the CU is in trunking so it should be possible to pull in new without having to chase the wall, I just hope this is also true for downstairs sockets, light switches etc
View attachment 99602
I will get a full re-wire underway as soon as I can find a qualified professional to do the job.
P.S. it's plasterboard not lathe & plaster as I thought it might be, I remember an earlier post about that.

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend
View attachment 99606

That's the definition of a minimal rewire for sure - though based on the age of those junction boxes I'd say that may have been done in the 70s, so maybe predates the previous owner too...

Fortunately the outside of the cable doesn't appear to be cracking yet, which it can in the worse cases, but it's clear that the sooner a rewire happens the better.

That's capping rather than trunking, but it may be loose enough to allow new cables to be pushed up if you are lucky - possibly by taping old and new cable together, or using a low profile joiner.

 

[nicebutdim]

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend
View attachment 99606

Hard to tell, but it does look like mouse droppings.

Energy food for the journey ahead.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The trouble with pulling T&E cable through capping is the damage that can be done to the insulation due to the sharp edges of the capping, needs careful checking after each pull through, I would look at pulling through singles and making good the capping to double insulated at the junctions keeping the singles continuous, never done that myself, but I am sure someone has and may be able to advise what to use to make good the capping at the junctions, maybe lever away the capping and put oval plastic trunking inside and dress the capping onto the plastic trunking, just a thought.

 

[fourtytwo]

First quote from internal pic of CU + address (Gainsborough) 10-12K

 

[Dustydazzler]

£10K basic Re-wire is pretty standard these days

 

[fourtytwo]

£10K basic Re-wire is pretty standard these days

Ohh, you opinioned in another thread in January this year concerning a 4 bed house
"You could probably do a Very basic rewire for about £5000, Very basic. A couple double sockets in every room , a pendant light in each room , a bit of 2 way switching and maybe a couple outside lights."

Personally I think £10K is completely over the top!

 

[SJD]

Costs depend very much on what a rewire comprises. For example, if there are currently only typically 2 sockets per bedroom, you'd likely want perhaps 3, 4 or 5 in the rewire. You need to supply a spec of how many sockets, lights (and what type), other things like smokes, fans, etc to know whether £10k is dear or cheap.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Ohh, you opinioned in another thread in January this year concerning a 4 bed house
"You could probably do a Very basic rewire for about £5000, Very basic. A couple double sockets in every room , a pendant light in each room , a bit of 2 way switching and maybe a couple outside lights."

Personally I think £10K is completely over the top!

2 socket per room and 1 pendant light is absolute bare bones these days 5 grand would be absolute bare bones re-wire literally , I never get any customers just wanting the absolute minimum on a full re-wire these days never

They all want USB sockets , loads of downlighters , dimmer s , CAT6 points etc etc

I am doing kitchens where the wiring is coming out to £5000 price range as they want so much installing these days

When you are pricing re-wires £10,000 is burned up without too much trouble

 

[UNG]

Ohh, you opinioned in another thread in January this year concerning a 4 bed house
"You could probably do a Very basic rewire for about £5000, Very basic. A couple double sockets in every room , a pendant light in each room , a bit of 2 way switching and maybe a couple outside lights."

Personally I think £10K is completely over the top!

A basic rewire in an unoccupied empty property would probably come in at £5k in January move forward 6 months and all the material price increases coming through and you are very likely pushing towards £6k

As Dusty points out once the "wouldn't it be nice if we had" kicks in and you start the price spiralling upwards the sky is the limit and once you add in the occupied and furniture / carpet / laminate flooring you bump the price again

While you may consider £10k completely over the top you may be searching for a long time to find an electrician who will do it significantly cheaper

 

[Dustydazzler]

A basic rewire in an unoccupied empty property would probably come in at £5k in January move forward 6 months and all the material price increases coming through and you are very likely pushing towards £6k

As Dusty points out once the "wouldn't it be nice if we had" kicks in and you start the price spiralling upwards the sky is the limit and once you add in the occupied and furniture / carpet / laminate flooring you bump the price again

While you may consider £10k completely over the top you may be searching for a long time to find an electrician who will do it significantly cheaper

EXACTLY

First thing I do when I am quoting for any medium to large domestic job these days is I tell the home owner that cable is the dearest it has even been. I explain you can easily spend over £1000 just on cable alone for a 3 bed re-wire

I think this sets the tone that any price they may have had in their brain will be way wrong

 

[Mike Johnson]

With the increase in costs since January, the extra downlighters that everyone wants these days, USB sockets and at least ten sockets in the kitchen min six above the worktop and four below for the white goods and the additional circuits for the induction hob and the ovens, min four sockets for each bedroom, min two in each hallway upstairs and downstairs I would be looking for closer to £15,000 these days, but then I am retired and would not even do it for my relatives for £10,000, the only way to reduce this cost would be for you to do all the preparatory work, lifting the floors and all the chasing needed, Good Luck finding anyone who is available let alone willing to do it.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I have tried going down the homeowner starts chasing and box bashing before I arrive but in reality it barely saves any time as the chases are always far too shallow and the boxes are to shallow

A full re-wire is probably the most labour intensive job a home owner can under-take , its even more labour intense than fitting a new bathroom or fitting new windows

They also forget we have to test everything and do loads of paper work afterward , this all takes time and time is cold hard money

 

[fourtytwo]

I seem to have stirred up some hornets! I don't want any extras at all. I am trying to get the underlying rubber replaced that is an obvious fire risk, the actual sockets, switch plates & ceiling roses are modern and only one needs renewing as it's missing. something like 30% of the underfloor and 60% of the in wall power cable is already PVC T&E, just red/black. I have already lifted the bulk of the flooring and boards to gain access and trace routes. The CU needs replacing as it's out of date and that's about it unless part P requires something else I am unaware of. As for chasing there really should not be any need and anyway I don't want the dust & decor damage.
Yes I expect you are right, bit like trying to find a builder for anything less than a big extension on a house.

 

[pc1966]

I seem to have stirred up some hornets! I don't want any extras at all. I am trying to get the underlying rubber replaced that is an obvious fire risk, the actual sockets, switch plates & ceiling roses are modern and only one needs renewing as it's missing. something like 30% of the underfloor and 60% of the in wall power cable is already PVC T&E, just red/black. I have already lifted the bulk of the flooring and boards to gain access and trace routes.

Old T&E that has not had known problems like the "green goo" of the early 70s, or been nibbled by rodents or nailed by DIY'ers is usually just fine. An IR test should verify that.

The CU needs replacing as it's out of date and that's about it unless part P requires something else I am unaware of.

Part P is just about notifying the local building control of certain types of work. Basically it was intended to make sure it was done by those competent to do it, test it, and submit certification to prove it. Sadly it has not delivered on the goals of greater safety in many cases, but that is life.

Replacing a CU is one of the notifiable items of work, but if you have replaced cables, etc, and made good any damaged accessories, then when it comes to the replacement it should all test out good & proper and whoever does it can certify without any major concern.

I would not normally suggest that, but so far you appear to be sensible and smart enough to know what needs to be done and what you can reasonably do.

As for chasing there really should not be any need and anyway I don't want the dust & decor damage.
Yes I expect you are right, bit like trying to find a builder for anything less than a big extension on a house.

Unless there is old cable plastered in then you probably can replace the old VIR without needing to go that far. If it is joined with other cable under floors, etc, then if replacing and joining again make sure you get maintenance free junction boxes and terminals (e.g. some of the Wago range). A also read the instructions as many MF boxes are only rated as such with specific choices of terminals, and with other step taken (such as cable ties on the box lid).

 

[Dustydazzler]

If you are re-using old cable then its not a full re-wire

 

[UNG]

Taking a pragmatic view retaining the old T&E while it saves some penny's now could be a false economy as the red / black T&E is at a minimum 15 - 16 years old but could easily be 30 - 40+ years old and while it may test ok now it could in 5 - 10 years time end up with a similar conversation to now and the same problems of rewiring and who knows what the regs will require then anyone for another CU with whatever new protection devices they have developed by then

 

[EricMark]

An I thought this house was bad, I had a home buyers report done, it pointed out a redundant fuse box was wedged between false ceiling and original ceiling, but it was not redundant. I had a fuse box and a consumer unit.

I has a new consumer unit fitted all RCBO's with idea any faults I can isolate that circuit, only fault found was a borrowed neutral on lights.

Getting the previous owner to have an EICR done, it seems does not help read this link the electrician was taken to court and fined for not doing a proper job, but that does not help the new owner, his contract was with old owner.

My mothers house had a part rewire before being sold, kitchen and wet room already done, seem to remember around £3000 in 2017 approx, I did all the plastering, minimum done, with idea may need to rent it to pay for her care home, but she died so house sold.

But 1966 was the date when lights had to have an earth, so any house wired before 1966 one expects it will need a rewire. Post 1966 there were some problems with Ian Smith so some aluminium cable used, and also some cable poorly made and the plasticizer leached out, but one would be unlucky to find either, there was still some VIR cable used in early 60's, but by the 1970's we had gone metric, and so easy to see in the fuse box/consumer unit if cables imperial or metric. We have been metric now for over 50 years.

I tried to add RCD protection to my parents old house before the rewire, it did not work, if I could have got a 100 mA type S may have got away with it, but one RCD up front is not really a good idea.

Son fitted a new CU and lived in a caravan supplied from it while re-wiring, and slowly got more and more wired in, took around a year before they could move back into the house, I think he went OTT with things like server in the loft, but the only problem was the 16 amp supply did caravan and washing machine, and it was not enough for both, only thing used in house was washing machine.

I could have lived in the garage here had the house electrics not been up to scratch, except in may case not the electrics which was a nightmare, but leaking garage roof. Not short of cash, one expects problems with an old house, which need correcting, but getting tradesmen was the problem. As least one who when he did the roof, it actually stopped leaking.