Does this warrant bringing the installers back to make it right?

[jerriais]

Got a call from a local guy that we quoted for, he went with another company and has now asked me to inspect his install today to see how it was. I've now done that and found a few issues:

1 Only used 12 hooks on a row of 7 panels (no wind calcs provided as far as I know but this is quite a few less than our calcs have ever come up with)
2 Cables left dangling on roof between every panel so they'll suffer from abrasion each time the wind blows them.
3 Tile removed where each hook is placed, bottom is flashed with sticky-backed lead replacement but still a gap around the hook for wind-driven snow or rain to penetrate.

Because the scaffolding is coming down tomorrow he's now asked me to give an opinion on whether to ask them to put these issues right before they take it down. My gut feeling is that I would want it put right but then that's just because it falls well short of the standard that we install to. What are thoughts on the forum about his legal right to ask them to correct these issues as his system is producing normally and his roof is not leaking?

 

[ArseyDee]

The guy chose not to give you the install work, but now wants your professional opinion? That's a bit cheeky!

 

[solarsavings]

I think that the people who have the brass neck to go with a cheaper quote and then ask the more professional company to come and inspect the work they've had done should............................................

 

[SolarCity]

When you say 12 roof hooks, do you mean 12 per rail? Or 6 per rail? We normally install 7-8 on a 7 metre run.

The roof hook solution looks very poor and I would say that this is the main issue with the install.

 

[JulianC]

Take payment for your inspection, report your findings and leave. What he choses to do with his installers is his business.

 

[jerriais]

I don't really feel that way (about the first two replies). A large part of our work these days is carrying out diagnosis and repair work for badly installed systems. I charge my time for repair work or producing an inspection and I'm upfront with the customer about that so it doesn't bother me whether it's a customer who's had a quote from us or not. I'm just more concerned with trying to encourage a PV industry that has healthy competition among installers who know how to put panels on roofs properly so they'll stay there a long time.

 

[jerriais]

When you say 12 roof hooks, do you mean 12 per rail? Or 6 per rail? We normally install 7-8 on a 7 metre run.

The roof hook solution looks very poor and I would say that this is the main issue with the install.

Only 6 per rail, the least we've ever put is 8 per rail of 7 panels, but sometimes more depending on location.

 

[solarsavings]

If you're happy to get paid for reporting any faults don't you think they ought to be your opinions and not members of the forum. I wouldn't have the cheek, but hey ho it takes all sorts.

 

[ArseyDee]

I don't really feel that way (about the first two replies). A large part of our work these days is carrying out diagnosis and repair work for badly installed systems. I charge my time for repair work or producing an inspection and I'm upfront with the customer about that so it doesn't bother me whether it's a customer who's had a quote from us or not. I'm just more concerned with trying to encourage a PV industry that has healthy competition among installers who know how to put panels on roofs properly so they'll stay there a long time.

Fair enough.

That's a worrying statement though. What percentage would you say is poor countrywide?

 

[jerriais]

If you're happy to get paid for reporting any faults don't you think they ought to be your opinions and not members of the forum. I wouldn't have the cheek, but hey ho it takes all sorts.

It's just more objective to get the views of other installers and show that it's not just me who find this kind of work unsatisfactory. I'm not asking the forum members to find the faults that will go in my report, just their opinions as to whether the faults are serious enough to get the installer to rectify them.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Fair enough.

That's a worrying statement though. What percentage would you say is poor countrywide?

Says to me that he's feeding off poor installers!
If the OP is that concerned, as he pointed out earlier, shouldn't he be employing differing methods in order to improve the industry?

Re the install: how long are those cables going to last chaffing against those roof tiles?

 

[whinmoor]

We would use at least 7 hooks, probably 8 or 9 on each rail. Ideally there would be a hook under each panel.

 

[jason121]

Just done a quick calc with K2 they recommend 8 roof hooks with 8 panels

 

[D Skelton]

Without wanting to go into any detail about the PV aspect of the job, at the very least those cables should be secured to meet regs (I haven't got my BGB to hand but there is definitly a requirement within it to ensure cables are secure), If there is a real risk of abrasion or damage occuring to a cable as a result of it's poor installation, the installer is liable to put it right. Both the EAWRs and the Building Regulations call for good workmanship, of course this is subjective, but I can't see many people agreeing that cables loosly strung across a roof is an example of good workmanship.

As for the tiles removed, I can't really comment as I can't see it in my own eyes, but it would worry me that driving rain could easily penetrate as a result. Maybe consulting with a decent roofer would help in your assessment of whether or not their solution is adequate enough to provide good protection from the elements.

If I'm inspecting another electricians work and there are obvious corners cut that affect the safety of an installation, hands down every time I would be advising the client to have the other electrician return to rectify his shoddy and potentially dangerous work!

Put it this way, if you had me round at your gaff to install some outside lights for example and I left the feed for them just loosley strung across the roof and for the hell of it decided to just whip a few roof tiles off, you'd be calling me back round to sort it out I'm guessing!

 

[jerriais]

Says to me that he's feeding off poor installers!

We get customers calling us up on a fairly regular basis and asking us to fix issues with inverters, roof hooks, isolators etc. Usually it's after they have called their original installer but they've now gone bust (often because they were pricing jobs too low to make a sustainable business) We then assess what needs doing, tell the customer how much it will cost then either they choose to go with us or not. How is that feeding off poor installers? (FYI some of the very worst installers have probably become very rich because it's a lot cheaper to install badly with poor quality kit)

If the OP is that concerned, as he pointed out earlier, shouldn't he be employing differing methods in order to improve the industry?

I'm sure there are various ways to improve the industry, I could go and work for RECC or MCS :yesnod:, take out newspaper ads warning people how not to choose a cowboy installer, but I choose to try to educate customers that I meet as to what are the things to look out for to make sure their install will last a long time and not compromise their safety or the watertightness of their roof.

Re the install: how long are those cables going to last chaffing against those roof tiles?

Exactly!

 

[jason121]

Doesn't matter how bad the installation is, was the paper work in order. That's all the MCS are looking for.

 

[lemaiz]

Thanks for the replies everyone - the install was done for me. To respond to the 1st 2 replies, the installers gave the best value quote and had nothing bad about them on the web, apart from a concern from another installer (who didn't know I had had another quote from them). Obviously a conflict of interest. Who would you go for? For the little extra, it's worth getting a 3rd party inspection and glad I did.

So it seems that a) they should've used more hooks, b) they shouldn't have removed the tiles and c) that cable should be secured.

Are there regs/guidelines to say this isn't satisfactory? Thanks again for the help, this stuff needs to be secure for decades...

 

[lemaiz]

Oh and e.on have accepted the paperwork, so I guess that's OK!

 

[Gavin A]

Got a call from a local guy that we quoted for, he went with another company and has now asked me to inspect his install today to see how it was. I've now done that and found a few issues:

1 Only used 12 hooks on a row of 7 panels (no wind calcs provided as far as I know but this is quite a few less than our calcs have ever come up with)

entirely depends on the rails and hooks used. We only eve spec higher strength rails and hooks specifically because we can use less of them, so the install takes less time, so this isn't necessarily an issue.

We also don't do specific wind load calcs for anything other than the worst situations as we've been speccing our rails and brackets to cope with all but the most severe of loadings on all jobs since we started, using the span tables supplied. No point faffing around with different grades of rails and brackets all the time IMO.

We've just had to buy in a bulk order of the stronger version of solarworld's rails from Germany to do this with their kit mind.

This may or may not apply in this case, just saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat on this, and our SE is happy enough with this approach.

2 Cables left dangling on roof between every panel so they'll suffer from abrasion each time the wind blows them.
3 Tile removed where each hook is placed, bottom is flashed with sticky-backed lead replacement but still a gap around the hook for wind-driven snow or rain to penetrate.

Because the scaffolding is coming down tomorrow he's now asked me to give an opinion on whether to ask them to put these issues right before they take it down. My gut feeling is that I would want it put right but then that's just because it falls well short of the standard that we install to. What are thoughts on the forum about his legal right to ask them to correct these issues as his system is producing normally and his roof is not leaking?
View attachment 21855View attachment 21856

simple enough to resolve, and will help focus the installers mind in future. At least they've made a bit of an effort on the tiles though, seen a lot worse.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

Thanks for the replies everyone - the install was done for me. To respond to the 1st 2 replies, the installers gave the best value
quote and had nothing bad about them on the web, apart from a concern from another installer (who didn't know I had had another quote from them). Obviously
a conflict of interest. Who would you go for? For the little extra, it's worth getting a 3rd party inspection and glad I did.

So it seems that a) they should've used more hooks, b) they shouldn't have removed
the tiles and c) that cable should be secured.

Are there regs/guidelines to say this isn't satisfactory? Thanks again for the help,
this stuff needs to be secure for decades...

Best value quote? Really? Or just the cheapest? I wouldn't say any purchase where you feel compelled to call in a professional for a second opinion before
the scaffold has even come down represents good value.


It sounds like you trusted the OP when he came to do your survey & quote as you have called him and asked for his opinion (correct me if I am
wrong, I appreciate this is speculative). Perhaps the lesson here for any future PV customers reading this, is to ask why the company that sounds like they know
what they are on about are slightly more expensive than your cheapest quote.
This might give them the opportunity to explain some of the detail in their methods/workmanship/materials etc that ensures that your installation is spot on
from day one and will remain that way for many, many years.

Those details are what a good installer does to create value. I appreciate this can be difficult for installers to communicate and equally difficult for consumers to know what to ask, but as an industry this needs to happen to avoid stories like this happening so often. I hope you get the required changes made OK and your system gives you a good return

 

[lemaiz]

Best value quote? Really? Or just the cheapest? I wouldn't say any purchase where you feel compelled to call in a professional for a second opinion before
the scaffold has even come down represents good value.

They offered more kit for less money. Everyone who gave me a quote sounded to me like they knew what they were talking about. So all things apparently being equal - and with nothing negative that I could find on the web, and the only concern being from a competitor (who obviously has a vested interest), what to do?

Since the OP raised concerns, and sounded like he knew what he was talking about, I thought it was worth paying a little more to get a second opinion. Because how do I know whether it's right? Maybe neither of them know what they're talking about?

Anyway, the owner of the company came over and had a look and, unsurprisingly, stood by his installation and was very pleased with it. Better the cables are a bit loose than too tight, he said. They've never heard any concerns about leaks with the waterproofing membrane they used - he has it on his own house, he said - and the hooks were more than enough, at the correct spacing of 1 every 1.2m. Everything was in line with relevant standards and guidelines.

 

[ArseyDee]

Thanks for the replies everyone - the install was done for me. To respond to the 1st 2 replies, the installers gave the best value quote and had nothing bad about them on the web, apart from a concern from another installer (who didn't know I had had another quote from them). Obviously a conflict of interest. Who would you go for? For the little extra, it's worth getting a 3rd party inspection and glad I did.

Why not start the thread yourself then?
Double cheeky!!
:yesnod:

 

[lemaiz]

Why not start the thread yourself then?
Double cheeky!!
:yesnod:

Because I knew nothing about this forum?