Moved house into a disaster zone

[fourtytwo]

I had a nasty thought about a full blown IR test at 500V, might it finish off the VIR, as in cause it to breakdown whereas at 240Vrms its just hanging in there..... Phew what a nightmare.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

 

[pc1966]

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

 

[fourtytwo]

The 6A with VIR, probably old lights, has a brown as well.

I wonder if it has had an extension or kitchen re-fit hence partly rewired?

It has been partially rewired as nearly all the sockets have pvc 2.5mm in them although mostly red/black. The left hand side of the house however that is mainly the kitchen & one upstairs bedroom is VIR in the sockets. The 32A on the left is the ring with VIR that goes upstairs, however the socket in the bedroom above is pvc!! I would love to be able to see under the floors.
Moving to the right the 6A has two VIR lighting feeds in it, the brown is from a 6A flex to a 13A socket above the CU since removed entirely, it actually fell off the wall as it was glued on
Moving to the right again the 16A used to have one of the VIR lighting feeds in it, I moved it to the left for safety.
Moving to the right again the 32A is cooker.
Moving to the right again the 6A is a spur to only a bugler alarm.
Moving to the right again the 16A is a spur to the garage that runs along the outside wall low down (Uggghhh), I believe this was added when the previous owner encountered problems powering a hot tub from the garage as they had made such a mess of the ring wiring it very nearly caught fire (there was melting & smoke damage in one socket from arcing). Hopefully now there is no hot tub and the ring is repaired I can restore the garage to it's original internal spur and remove this particular abortion.
There is an extension, single story dining room added quite a long time ago and that is all in pvc.
The few (2-3) light switches I have examined in the rest of the house are all VIR.

 

[fourtytwo]

The B32 next to the main switch look like it may have an old faded brown, this is always assuming the latest circuits where T&E?

Nope just the two 7/029 VIR's

 

[fourtytwo]

I think you need to step back and look at the difference between disturbing some decoration and flooring or risking the life of your family, or burning the place down, at the absolute minimum an up front RCD in the meantime.

Obviously some work has been done on the circuits as I note that there are two circuits in Brown that presumably the Blues belong too, but two Browns and Three Blues?

You missed one of the browns, probably the one in the 6A with the two lighting VIR's.
It would be very nice to get an RCD fitted but I have already been trying to get a plumber for the last 2 weeks and frankly finding any professionals is very difficult. Unfortunatly we have landed from space on Mars as we are new to this area and know nobody, neighbours are also faced with similar problems.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I'm looking at this picture, so there are three cables into the 6A?

 

[fourtytwo]

Must be my eyesight, but I can see three cables into the B32.

There was when I first arrived, the 6A flax to the double socket was in the B32 till I moved it to the adjacent B6, are you looking at the recent picture in this thread after the move was done or in one of my other threads before the move of that wire I wonder.
EDIT
Ahh yes that is the earlier more deadly picture!
If you look at the picture in post#39 this thread that nasty piece of 6A flex has now been removed completely along with the double socket it was feeding. And as described above the 2nd VIR lighting feed has been moved from a 16A to the same 6A as the other lighting feed.
Sorry for the confusion but there were some things that needed doing immediately!
EDIT EDIT
But looking at the closeup in post#17 I think you may be right, it does look like there are 3 pieces of VIR in the 32A, I dont want to disturb it to look closer but I assume this may be a local spur connection.

 

[fourtytwo]

I just had a fairly horrible thought, given the age of the original wiring and the fact that every socket found with VIR in it is a spur (only one cable in it) then maybe it was a radial installation that has been partially ringified!! Although I carried out a ring resistance test in a socket with two pvc's in it I have not tested the two (or three) VIR's at the CU mostly because I am worried to disturb them but........

 

[Mike Johnson]

That's the problem with not updating the picture in the next page, I had to go back a page and looked at the first picture I came across, this thread and the others you have running do not lend themselves to getting consistent answers, stick to one thread concerning one subject to make it easier for people to try and help.

 

[Dartlec]

I just had a fairly horrible thought, given the age of the original wiring and the fact that every socket found with VIR in it is a spur (only one cable in it) then maybe it was a radial installation that has been partially ringified!! Although I carried out a ring resistance test in a socket with two pvc's in it I have not tested the two (or three) VIR's at the CU mostly because I am worried to disturb them but........

That's not impossible, but it's probably one of the less important issues to be honest, particularly if you do your best to keep the load as low as you can on the affected circuits. Broken rings are pretty common and it's rare for it to cause huge problems with the cable, although in this case the cable may be falling apart of it's own accord just due to age.

Have you been able to take light switches off to see how the VIR is holding up at that point? In my experience, the place where VIR will disintegrate first is at light switches/sockets connections. If it's still holding up there, that may be a promising sign that it is not yet too bad - (though still a high priority to replace of course). If the sockets are in PVC, that does mean there are junctions somewhere that you can't inspect of course, and that may be the most problematic issue.

The only plus really about the pictures is that the insulation in the consumer unit appears to still be in place - I've seen much worse still live in a current property where the insulation is literally dust.

Does the cooker circuit have a socket on the isolation switch? If so I'd probably recommend running any high loads like kettles from that if you can.

Not sure how practical it might be to reduce the load on the VIR circuits as much as possible, even if it means extension leads from other parts of the house, which is something electricians normally avoid (except in their own houses, obviously!)

It's unfortunate that most tradesmen are very busy at the moment and thus hard to get hold of. The only real way to get a proper idea of how dangerous the installation currently is would be with careful testing.

I think in these circumstances, you may find a reasonable electrician willing to fit an up front RCD, having taken all the circumstances into account, and on the clear understanding that things will be corrected when they can. But I could also see ones who did not want to get involved unless it was to disconnect those circuits...

You would likely want to find an experienced electrician, perhaps one who has dealt with cabling like this before.

 

[LukeD]

I would have knocked £10k off when buying that ! Its always worth making sure about these things as Surveyors in suits wont have a clue

 

[Mike Johnson]

See post number 21 on page one.

 

[timhoward]

he left hand side of the house however that is mainly the kitchen & one upstairs bedroom is VIR in the sockets.

Then the kitchen should be a high priority to rewire. Short term a couple of 16A sockets under the CU and some site style daisy chained power for the kitchen appliances could be an option.

Moving to the right again the 6A is a spur to only a bugler alarm.

Very wise to get warning of a bugler in the vicinity, we all need our sleep especially in this heat!

 

[fourtytwo]

Thank you for all the replies, I will indeed keep to just the one thread, at first I thought they were separate issues but I have come to realise they are all aspects of the same horrid mess!!
The first job I did today was to separate the two 7/029 VIR's at the CU & test for ring completeness with nothing whatever connected to any outlet and they did form a ring so thank god not radials. I also tested the insulation at the low DVM voltage and got infinity on both L-N & L-E, so far so good. The trouble started when I decided to separate the two lighting lives for an insulation test and lo some of the insulation fell off thus confirming it is indeed in a parlous state.
This convinced me a rewire was imminent so I set about the laminate flooring in the bedroom above the CU, when some boards were lifted there were some unpleasant surprises given both the sockets in this room had previously been checked and found to be wired in pvc and hence put on the good list, well the pvc lasts for about a foot, just enough to get under the boards where it joins onto the rubber with JB's, I have never seen the like, this is either a fraudulent re-wire or the previous owner having a joke!!

There was just one bit of good news and that was the cabling up from the CU is in trunking so it should be possible to pull in new without having to chase the wall, I just hope this is also true for downstairs sockets, light switches etc

I will get a full re-wire underway as soon as I can find a qualified professional to do the job.
P.S. it's plasterboard not lathe & plaster as I thought it might be, I remember an earlier post about that.

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend

 

[Dartlec]

Thank you for all the replies, I will indeed keep to just the one thread, at first I thought they were separate issues but I have come to realise they are all aspects of the same horrid mess!!
The first job I did today was to separate the two 7/029 VIR's at the CU & test for ring completeness with nothing whatever connected to any outlet and they did form a ring so thank god not radials. I also tested the insulation at the low DVM voltage and got infinity on both L-N & L-E, so far so good. The trouble started when I decided to separate the two lighting lives for an insulation test and lo some of the insulation fell off thus confirming it is indeed in a parlous state.
This convinced me a rewire was imminent so I set about the laminate flooring in the bedroom above the CU, when some boards were lifted there were some unpleasant surprises given both the sockets in this room had previously been checked and found to be wired in pvc and hence put on the good list, well the pvc lasts for about a foot, just enough to get under the boards where it joins onto the rubber with JB's, I have never seen the like, this is either a fraudulent re-wire or the previous owner having a joke!!
View attachment 99600
View attachment 99601
There was just one bit of good news and that was the cabling up from the CU is in trunking so it should be possible to pull in new without having to chase the wall, I just hope this is also true for downstairs sockets, light switches etc
View attachment 99602
I will get a full re-wire underway as soon as I can find a qualified professional to do the job.
P.S. it's plasterboard not lathe & plaster as I thought it might be, I remember an earlier post about that.

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend
View attachment 99606

That's the definition of a minimal rewire for sure - though based on the age of those junction boxes I'd say that may have been done in the 70s, so maybe predates the previous owner too...

Fortunately the outside of the cable doesn't appear to be cracking yet, which it can in the worse cases, but it's clear that the sooner a rewire happens the better.

That's capping rather than trunking, but it may be loose enough to allow new cables to be pushed up if you are lucky - possibly by taping old and new cable together, or using a low profile joiner.

 

[nicebutdim]

EDIT
And are they mouse droppings or bits of crumbling insulation from this bend
View attachment 99606

Hard to tell, but it does look like mouse droppings.

Energy food for the journey ahead.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The trouble with pulling T&E cable through capping is the damage that can be done to the insulation due to the sharp edges of the capping, needs careful checking after each pull through, I would look at pulling through singles and making good the capping to double insulated at the junctions keeping the singles continuous, never done that myself, but I am sure someone has and may be able to advise what to use to make good the capping at the junctions, maybe lever away the capping and put oval plastic trunking inside and dress the capping onto the plastic trunking, just a thought.