Turning a blind eye123456789

[Pete999]

There was a post today regarding some testing problems, seems that the poor chat had taken a short course with the promise of getting qualified at the end, providing the exam was passed, which he did to his credit, personally my understanding was / is that these courses try to cram peoples heads with so much information in a short time span, that unless you are totally committed it will go in one ear and out the other. You probably know by know I'm not a fan of these courses.
I have a question, to which I think I know the answer, who polices these training centers? is it the CP Schemes? If so they aren't making a very good job of it, there were several comments, mine included, wondering if these short courses are working, for some yes of course they are, and produce some good Electricians, is there a Government oversight on these courses, or have they just turned a blind eye, thing "well at least we have done something about the skill shortage" What's your opinion?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I doubt anyone polices these centres as such.
There may be some oversight from the examination boards, C&G, EAL, etc?

 

[Pete999]

I doubt anyone polices these centres as such.
There may be some oversight from the examination boards, C&G, EAL, etc?

Thanks Mate, surely the powers that be in the IET or whoever, must realise what is going on, I'm at a loss, and so glad I have retired, shameful state of affairs.

 

[westward10]

I am doing a five day dentistry course next week so anyone with dental issues just pm me and we will sort something.

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

As someone who has gone this route I can assure you that they take your money and don’t give a ----.

 

[telectrix]

these short courses are policed very well by the likes of NICEIC. as long as they pass enough candidates to swell the funds of the scams, then that's it.

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Pete, in fairness to the post you’re referring to I thought he seemed reasonably understanding on what he knew and his limitations. I myself only “got into this type of thing” due to the cowboys out there.

Ironic that the “fix” to eliminate the cowboy aspect has effectively endorsed it

 

[Midwest]

Pete perhaps you should ask one of the forum sponsors;

IET Centre of Excellence - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/pages/iet-centre-of-excellence
perhaps its the grown ups at the IET who are to blame?

Whilst I agree I can't see how you can become an electrician in 18 days, some of the other courses seem perfectly plausible; I did a 2392 with them, and you know how brilliant my testing skills are

 

[Pete999]

Pete, in fairness to the post you’re referring to I thought he seemed reasonably understanding on what he knew and his limitations. I myself only “got into this type of thing” due to the cowboys out there.

Ironic that the “fix” to eliminate the cowboy aspect has effectively endorsed it

In fairness DJ I wholeheartedly sympathize with the OP and in no way was I having a dig at him, so please , please don't think differently, I understand he has some probs with his skill set that's understandable, my gripe was/is with the expectations dished out by the training centers, and in conclusion I wish the OP all the best.

 

[The Ghost]

To be fair again, I had an 18 year old who had just finished three years doing the proper course who came and worked with me. A quiet lad and thoughtful, but he did not have a clue when it came to first fix even. He put one earth on a rfc 2.5 cable into the terminal on the metal box and the other earth into the socket earth terminal. I asked him to wire a ceiling rose and it was a complete mess. I asked him to terminate some lighting cables into wagos, he could not do it at least at first. After showing him a few times he got it. Whereas I could terminate the lot per light in a couple of minutes it was taking him 20-30 minutes. It is very much to do with experience in the end and being guided by someone who knows the skills. For instance the man abducted by the aliens, it is ok to know how to test an rfc but what about when the figures go wrong, how do you interpret/understand it and remedy it? Again experience and a good grasp of the maths/science are the key factors which I think no course can teach even if they are policed as it were.

 

[Pete999]

To be fair again, I had an 18 year old who had just finished three years doing the proper course who came and worked with me. A quiet lad and thoughtful, but he did not have a clue when it came to first fix even. He put one earth on a rfc 2.5 cable into the terminal on the metal box and the other earth into the socket earth terminal. I asked him to wire a ceiling rose and it was a complete mess. I asked him to terminate some lighting cables into wagos, he could not do it at least at first. After showing him a few times he got it. Whereas I could terminate the lot per light in a couple of minutes it was taking him 20-30 minutes. It is very much to do with experience in the end and being guided by someone who knows the skills. For instance the man abducted by the aliens, it is ok to know how to test an rfc but what about when the figures go wrong, how do you interpret/understand it and remedy it? Again experience and a good grasp of the maths/science are the key factors which I think no course can teach even if they are policed as it were.

Well good for him, my gripe was aimed at the expectations these courses dish out, I hope the Lad you have does well, good luck to you and him.

 

[The Ghost]

Well good for him

Yeh but the thing is what the hell were they teaching him at college for three years, can't even wire a socket! Ye gods!

 

[Midwest]

To be fair again, I had an 18 year old who had just finished three years doing the proper course who came and worked with me. A quiet lad and thoughtful, but he did not have a clue when it came to first fix even. He put one earth on a rfc 2.5 cable into the terminal on the metal box and the other earth into the socket earth terminal. I asked him to wire a ceiling rose and it was a complete mess. I asked him to terminate some lighting cables into wagos, he could not do it at least at first. After showing him a few times he got it. Whereas I could terminate the lot per light in a couple of minutes it was taking him 20-30 minutes. It is very much to do with experience in the end and being guided by someone who knows the skills. For instance the man abducted by the aliens, it is ok to know how to test an rfc but what about when the figures go wrong, how do you interpret/understand it and remedy it? Again experience and a good grasp of the maths/science are the key factors which I think no course can teach even if they are policed as it were.

I have to agree with you Vortigern, when I did my apprenticeship (for which I paid diddley), there were quite a few colleagues that were rough as a badgers arse, not me of course!

Having worked with some guys who have had to pay for their own training, I've been most impressed with their skills, commitment & ability. I suppose the only area they are short on is experience. But they can gain that, like using this forum.

 

[Midwest]

I have to agree with you Vortigern, when I did my apprenticeship (for which I paid diddley), there were quite a few colleagues that were rough as a badgers arse, not me of course!

Having worked with some guys who have had to pay for their own training, I've been most impressed with their skills, commitment & ability. I suppose the only area they are short on is experience. But they can gain that, like using this forum.

That's not quite true, I was working on my own after the first year, so the firm made their money out of me.

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

I didn’t mate!

In fairness DJ I wholeheartedly sympathize with the OP and in no way was I having a dig at him, so please , please don't think differently, I understand he has some probs with his skill set that's understandable, my gripe was/is with the expectations dished out by the training centers, and in conclusion I wish the OP all the best.

 

[Stspark]

I don't think we can rely on the IET to police the industry as previously suggested, it's just a profiteering business like the CPS's, JIB, ect ect. Look at the amount of 'electricians guides', 'student guides', 'COP's', 'guidance notes' and continuous regs amendments all of which are relevant and informative but come at a substantial cost. Even the 'wiring matters' has sponsored articles.

Energy Bulletin - https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/publications/energy-bulletin
This is an Australian version of 'wiring matters'. Where the electrical and gas industry are full licenced by the government. Put's the 'iet wiring matters' to shame!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Don’t think you can really compare the State Government of Western Australia with the IET.

 

[ipf]

Don’t think you can really compare the State Government of Western Australia with the IET.

No....but, at least if you tried training a kangaroo as an apprentice, it wouldn't be on an iPhone all day.

 

[Dave Rudderham]

To be fair again, I had an 18 year old who had just finished three years doing the proper course who came and worked with me. A quiet lad and thoughtful, but he did not have a clue when it came to first fix even. He put one earth on a rfc 2.5 cable into the terminal on the metal box and the other earth into the socket earth terminal. I asked him to wire a ceiling rose and it was a complete mess. I asked him to terminate some lighting cables into wagos, he could not do it at least at first. After showing him a few times he got it. Whereas I could terminate the lot per light in a couple of minutes it was taking him 20-30 minutes. It is very much to do with experience in the end and being guided by someone who knows the skills. For instance the man abducted by the aliens, it is ok to know how to test an rfc but what about when the figures go wrong, how do you interpret/understand it and remedy it? Again experience and a good grasp of the maths/science are the key factors which I think no course can teach even if they are policed as it were.

I am currently on a level 3 course as a mature student. Luckily I have experience that goes back for the best part of 20 years, I could wire a ceiling rose when I was 14, but that's besides the point.
Hear the tales I tell because I pity some of the people who are getting the youngsters.
Last week we had a lad being quite loud in professing that "yellow plug" was 110v 3-phase. In theory I am often told to be quiet as I quite literally know all the answers. Questions such as "what is voltage?" "Explain how an MCB/RCD/RCBO differ?" "Explain how they work?" "Why would you fit a 20A MCB to a radial using 2.5mmsq and in what circumstances could you use a 32A MCB?" are met with absolute silence.

 

[Stspark]

Don’t think you can really compare the State Government of Western Australia with the IET.

Clearly.
Seems to me 1 governing body works quite well. With NIC, Napit, Stroma, Elecsa, JIB, Electrical safety first, IET all with their own agendas it's no wonder the industry in UK seems to be becoming lower skilled and lower paid.

 

[sevuk]

Clearly.
Seems to me 1 governing body works quite well. With NIC, Napit, Stroma, Elecsa, JIB, Electrical safety first, IET all with their own agendas it's no wonder the industry in UK seems to be becoming lower skilled and lower paid.

I don't know, going by agency rate trends, 6 years ago it was £13 an hour and now it's around £21. This is the commercial and industrial world though.

I must say though, some things these skills colleges are good for - the short courses like 17th edition and inspection and testing. The NVQ assessment, as they aren't governed by term times so students can be assessed more flexibly.

I think for the diploma part there is no other way than doing 1 day a week. That's how I did it, just seems sensible to learn this trade having a day aside learning why you're doing what you're doing on site every day.

I might add nobody stops learning, especially in this trade which is so closely connected with technology.

 

[Midwest]

Well good for him, my gripe was aimed at the expectations these courses dish out, I hope the Lad you have does well, good luck to you and him.

Pete I see a particular trend through a lot of your posts & threads. You seem to have loads of life style experience & expertise from your career, and now that you've retired, find yourself a little bit exasperated, if you pardon me. In a previous life, we often asked people such as yourself, to pass on those experiences to those coming into the 'workplace'. Why not approach the your local colleges of further education & training and commercial establishments, to see if your could relate these practical & worldly wise experiences?

 

[gazdkw82]

I think the AM2 is a good test of actual knowledge and skill set. If your not good enough you won’t pass this.

I doubt anyone who takes these courses will have taken an AM2 exam? Isn’t it just level 2 domestic installer?

I started my journey on a similar track (although my course lasted just over 18 months but technically I have 5 weeks of practical assessment)

I never thought it was a green light to go installing and doing my own thing, it was a springboard. I got a electricians mate job with a level 3 nvq course to boot.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I am doing a five day dentistry course next week so anyone with dental issues just pm me and we will sort something.

At least you will still be able to use your masonry bits Westy !

 

[happysteve]

Pete, in answer to your question, it is the awarding bodies of the qualifications delivered in the training centres/colleges that "police" them. In practice, this means C&G, EAL and the like. They uphold standards in terms of how assessments are done, and how centres are run, etc.

The competent person schemes decide on membership requirements, based on guidance in the Electrotechnical Assessment Specification. From the IET's website:

The Electrotechnical Assessment Specification (EAS) describes:

• The minimum requirements for an enterprise (eg, contractor) to be recognised by a certification body as competent to undertake electrical installation work, (design, construction, installation and verification) in England and Wales. It includes the minimum technical competence requirements for enterprises to be considered competent to carry out electrical installation work in dwellings in accordance with Part P of the building regulations.
• The competence requirements for registered Qualified Supervisors and Responsible Persons of the competent enterprises.
• Particular requirements for compliance with the Scottish building standards.
• Interpretation of the general requirements for bodies operating product certification (including process and service) schemes of BS EN 45011.
• The EAS has been prepared by a management committee that it includes representatives of the competent person scheme providers, trade associations, the department for Communities and Local Government, the Electrical Safety Council and the Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET). The IET has accepted ownership of the specification, and provides administrative support to the management committee.

The specification was prepared as part of the support of the electrical industry (and other interested parties) in introducing electrical safety in to the Building Regulations.

Part of the guidance (to the CPSes) is experience, part is qualifications. Each CPS interprets the guidance to their own whims, whilst fitting within the overall framework.

 

[static zap]

Pete..... to see if your could relate these practical & worldly wise experiences?

I have relative in teaching , the youth of today -seems to be Extra irritating .
(Like I don't think I can smile politely thru screaming baby noises any more!)

 

[Midwest]

I have relative in teaching , the youth of today -seems to be Extra irritating .
(Like I don't think I can smile politely thru screaming baby noises any more!)

Wasn't thinking of teaching or training (you need NVQ's, as well as being able to smile), more of a guest speaker relating practical experiences, pictures (not the holiday snaps Pete!) etc.

If Tony Cable made a career out of it, sure Pete could make an odd appearance; give the yuops of today some ideas where they careers could take them.

 

[Pete999]

Wasn't thinking of teaching or training (you need NVQ's, as well as being able to smile), more of a guest speaker relating practical experiences, pictures (not the holiday snaps Pete!) etc.

If Tony Cable made a career out of it, sure Pete could make an odd appearance; give the yuops of today some ideas where they careers could take them.

Just contacted the Local College, thanks for the idea, will let you know how it goes.

 

[Rpa07]

That is a good idea for the experienced likes of Pete999, Midwest.
I think that the industry and its standards are down to the individual learning. I looked at the private college, that I went to, as the chance to get introduced to the job but at no time was I under the illusion that would know anything without the practical experience.
I fell on my feet by landing an electricians mate job, working hard everyday experiencing a wide range and coupling it with the theory that I was absorbing via videos, books and the forum.
I then went Agency as improver and I’ve seen one commercial project (refurb of 8 out of 15 floors office block) from demolition to handover, learnt containment, wiring and conduit Work over 5 months and continuing .
It has been invaluable to my confidence and career.
In my short 3 years I have made it my responsibility to be the best i can be mostly because the public need that as they are my employer and my source of income. Loving the work and being interested in every aspect is the key.
Sorry to go on but the answer to the question is that the colleges and training centres will be under scrutiny by the awarding bodies but overall it’s the individual that is responsible for their learning and I believe that not everyone can become competent Sparks just because they have a qualification.

 

[elsparko]

There was a post today regarding some testing problems, seems that the poor chat had taken a short course with the promise of getting qualified at the end, providing the exam was passed, which he did to his credit, personally my understanding was / is that these courses try to cram peoples heads with so much information in a short time span, that unless you are totally committed it will go in one ear and out the other. You probably know by know I'm not a fan of these courses.
I have a question, to which I think I know the answer, who polices these training centers? is it the CP Schemes? If so they aren't making a very good job of it, there were several comments, mine included, wondering if these short courses are working, for some yes of course they are, and produce some good Electricians, is there a Government oversight on these courses, or have they just turned a blind eye, thing "well at least we have done something about the skill shortage" What's your opinion?

if they are paying for it out of their pockets than chances are they will be willing, "all the gear, no idea" comes to mind, we had a tutor at college who was good on paper but when it came to practical stuff in the workshop he was just in the way, he held a PHD in physics

my opinion is the more of these guys out there thenmore work will come our way, when i get my car worked on i dont just choose any old garage, i use a trusted mechanic that has the experience to fix my vehicle, likewise when it comes to houses, dont know why people cut corners when its the most valuable asset most people own, a badly wired extra socket can bring the whole thing down.



the only way to truely learn is on site in my opinion, everyone makes mistakes , rectifying those mistakes in a timely manner is what most fall short on

 

[westward10]

Change may happen when some unfortunate person is killed by sub standard work.

 

[elsparko]

That is a good idea for the experienced likes of Pete999, Midwest.
I think that the industry and its standards are down to the individual learning. I looked at the private college, that I went to, as the chance to get introduced to the job but at no time was I under the illusion that would know anything without the practical experience.
I fell on my feet by landing an electricians mate job, working hard everyday experiencing a wide range and coupling it with the theory that I was absorbing via videos, books and the forum.
I then went Agency as improver and I’ve seen one commercial project (refurb of 8 out of 15 floors office block) from demolition to handover, learnt containment, wiring and conduit Work over 5 months and continuing .
It has been invaluable to my confidence and career.
In my short 3 years I have made it my responsibility to be the best i can be mostly because the public need that as they are my employer and my source of income. Loving the work and being interested in every aspect is the key.
Sorry to go on but the answer to the question is that the colleges and training centres will be under scrutiny by the awarding bodies but overall it’s the individual that is responsible for their learning and I believe that not everyone can become competent Sparks just because they have a qualification.

Change may happen when some unfortunate person is killed by sub standard work.

as is always the case, health and safety brushed to the side until someone loses a --------

 

[gazdkw82]

Rpa07 -

I couldn’t have worded that better. I have followed an almost exact path.

I have seen alot of trainees who are just lazy, not interested, overwhelmed by the simplest challenge, cant work as a team or just not a hands on person.

Iv also met a few very dedicated and talented ones. Im a mature trainee, I chose this career path knowing full well what it involved and did my research. I think a lot of people don’t do that and have green in their eyes because they believe what people say about sparks being very very well payed. For me money wasn’t the driving force. When you’ve been in a dead end job it’s relieveing to do something I enjoy and get paid to do it.

I’d say most the trainees on the course I was on we’re paying for it themselves. It was mostly filled with mature students like myself. It was evident the ones that were not paying for it lol

I can not believe for one minute you can be a qualified sparks in 4-5 weeks. Even 4-5 years isn’t pushing it. There’s just so much to learn on such a broad spectrum, motors, invertors, lighting, induction, single phase, three phase.... the learning is endless...... and so is my enjoyment