Advise please on a new re-wire

[pjmale45]

Hi all, I would appreciate some proffessional advise on a recent re-wire my friend has had. Im not 100% up on regs for domestic property and also sure about workmanship practices but I know this is a bad job. I want to go back to the contractor but Im gathering some 'truths' first before I start. This was a 3 bed house in Birmingham area and cost £4500. Ive added some pics to give you an idea but Im mostly concerned about 1. clipped wiring not covered in protection, 2. the wiring is not channeled its level with plaster so how do you cover it?, 3. isnt the wiring into the consumer unit supposed to be enclosed or glanded to keep the fire aspect safe?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

[buzzlightyear]

clipped cables are covered by RCD protection ? because the cables have not been glanded
does not make it safe ,but how ever the cables need some fire rated seal on the grommets, because their is no capped on the cables it will not stop a nail going through . I see some cables are clipped togeather should been separated in pic 6 putting stress on the outer sheeth .

 

[radiohead]

I cant see anything which does not meet regulations here, with the possible exception of the cables coming down the wall which may not be entirely within a safe zone, is there a socket at low level and are they in line with it ?.... that's the key. There is no requirement for flush cables to be capped, although it is considered good practice.
There is no requirement for fire seal around the holes in the DB, or for glands, the IP rating appears to have been maintained which is sufficient. Not the neatest job though to put it mildly, minimal compliance and no more.

 

[Ian1981]

I cant see anything which does not meet regulations here, with the possible exception of the cables coming down the wall which may not be entirely within a safe zone, is there a socket at low level and are they in line with it ?.... that's the key. There is no requirement for flush cables to be capped, although it is considered good practice.
There is no requirement for fire seal around the holes in the DB, or for glands, the IP rating appears to have been maintained which is sufficient. Not the neatest job though to put it mildly, minimal compliance and no more.

The IP rating is not maintained at the top of the CU where the cables enter ie the entry point on the middle cables ,is greater than IP4X

 

[Dustydazzler]

Looks pretty standard to me....

( I personally would cap all the cables ready to be plastered in )

 

[freddo]

Why is there so much damage to the coving/ walls?! That is really untidy.

 

[westward10]

Can we keep this professional please this is a new member, keep to facts and not jest.

 

[radiohead]

The IP rating is not maintained at the top of the CU where the cables enter ie the entry point on the middle cable entries at least, is greater than IP4X

Looking at it you are probably right, I think that would be classed as a 'minor' though.

 

[Ian1981]

Looking at it you are probably right, I think that would be classed as a 'minor' though.

It’s definitely Non compliant considering on the schedule of items inspected it should be ticked as being satisfactory

 

[westward10]

It looks a bit awkward but not that difficult to take the trunking up to and across the top of the board. The mini trunking at the door frame looks awful.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Bit of neat boxing painted in would do the trick

 

[davesparks]

Looking at it you are probably right, I think that would be classed as a 'minor' though.

What do you mean by a minor? As per the regulations any non compliances must be rectified before issuing the EIC, there are no grades of non-compliance.

 

[Dustydazzler]

i was always told you can’t issue an installation certificate with defects

 

[radiohead]

What do you mean by a minor? As per the regulations any non compliances must be rectified before issuing the EIC, there are no grades of non-compliance.

In practice there are probably very few major works, even high quality jobs, which do not have a 'minor' non-compliance somewhere. I've seen several recently carried out under the 18th with quarterly RCD test labels. I saw one last week where the main earth was brought into the steel DB through a separate gland. Another where a long run of SWA was cleated with entirely plastic cleats. EIC's had been issued. I'm not saying it's correct, but I very much doubt if that contractor took his assessor to that job the assessor would make him rectify that IP non compliance. It would be noted as a 'minor' on the assessors report. That was the point I was making.

 

[pjmale45]

The confusion of it all doesn't help. 1 person says one thing but others aren't so sure to agree. I thought the regs weren't meant to clear up issues not create them? Lol

 

[radiohead]

The confusion of it all doesn't help. 1 person says one thing but others aren't so sure to agree. I thought the regs weren't meant to clear up issues not create them? Lol

If you want to complain you would have a valid reason with the IP rating of the top entries on the DB, this could be easily rectified, but in my view is not a cause for real concern. I would ask as well for those cables to be secured above the DB, or better still enclosed. Other than that I think you will struggle as poor chasing is not a breach of regulations. I ask again though, are those vertical drop cables in line with a point? If not that would be a more seriouus deviation.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Once this job was all plastered in and painted the only obvious defect would be the proper IP rating on the consumer unit isn’t met...
this could easily be rectified with a bit of mdf boxing...

 

[radiohead]

Once this job was all plastered in and painted the only obvious defect would be the proper IP rating on the consumer unit isn’t met...
this could easily be rectified with a bit of mdf boxing...

We cant see from the pictures whether the vertical drops are compliant. Low level accessories are not visible

 

[ChipFanDave]

As far as I can see the only regulation breach is the clear non IP4X cables entry on the top of the consumer unit. The rest of the work is subjective especially as we can't see the full installation but looks like some of the cables could be run outside of the correct zones At best it appears a bit shoddy.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd like to see inside the CU, that tells you quite a lot
I get the impression it's been done as fast as possible without any pride in the workmanship. That's the trouble I think, a job can be 'compliant' but still look RAF....

 

[MJPD29]

It is not how I would have did it but certainly not the worst i have seen and I cant really see anything that would break regulations to be honest. Seems to be the standard of work on rewires etc when prices are low.

 

[Cid]

A bit of intumescent sealant will fix the IP issue. But rest of the installation looks fine. Some people expect everything to be returned to it's original condition after a rewire. Get a decorator in man.

 

[davesparks]

A bit of intumescent sealant will fix the IP issue. But rest of the installation looks fine. Some people expect everything to be returned to it's original condition after a rewire. Get a decorator in man.

Any sealant will fix the issue, there is nothing in the regulations which requires intumescent sealant.

 

[Pete999]

i was always told you can’t issue an installation certificate with defects

perhaps the installer didn't know or realise he had left a defective install, that's why I mentioned looking at the EIC.

 

[telectrix]

whilst a bit rough, if those cables are below the level of the plaster finish, you can plaster directly onto them when filling the chases.

 

[pjmale45]

whisst a bit rough, if those cables are below the level of the plaster finish, you can plaster directly onto them when filling the chases.

Thats the whole point, they ARE NOT below the level they are flush, they CAN NOT be covered unless the whole wall is plastered to make it thicker but theres coving installed.
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I have to say Im gobsmacked at the comments who see little wrong with this install. The level of workmanship is poor especially for £4500. Ive not been involved in domestic stuff for over twenty years and even back then we wouldnt have been allowed to do this by our employer.

 

[telectrix]

if the plaster is that thin, which is unusual, that the cables are proud, then the chase should have been deeper, cutting into the brick by a few mm.. this would have required a chase cutter with the problem of dust. without seeing it in person, difficult to make a definitive assessment. from the pics., though, those chases should have been done with a chaser coupled to a vac. the coving should not have been damaged; room for cables behind. as said before, with those vertical chases, are there sockets directly below? if not, it's a major non-compliance. google "safe cable zones" to pull up a diagram

 

[pjmale45]

if the plaster is that thin, which is unusual, that the cables are proud, then the chase should have been deeper, cutting into the brick by a few mm.. this would have required a chase cutter with the problem of dust. without seeing it in person, difficult to make a definitive assessment. from the pics., though, those chases should have been done with a chaser coupled to a vac. the coving should not have been damaged; room for cables behind. as said before, with those vertical chases, are there sockets directly below? if not, it's a major non-compliance. google "safe cable zones" to pull up a diagram

The plaster would cover just the cable but with the clips or the capping which is used in some areas for some reason it makes them flush with the surface of the plaster. As I say its more around the cost and what was expected for that cost. The customer has now got to get either major plaster works done and coving work or get cables channeled in further. Ive got the safe zones in the building regs and on site guide I hadnt even considered that and didnt get that far. Once I saw the install I was in complete shock if Im honest.

 

[dmxtothemax]

DITTO !
Not exactly "best practice"
But not dangerous either
You will have little come back
unless you had clearly dictated levels of workmanship

 

[Dustydazzler]

OP

yes it looks a bit rough , but believe me this is what a pretty standard domestic rewire will look like up and down the country

once the house is replastered and painted nobody will see the cables

i personally would over cap every cable with some plastic capping as this is how I always do it , but not everybody does
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As for the cables being proud of the wall , this will become an issue and the need setting back in by 5-6mm to allow a decent amount of plaster be spread over them

i would get the electrician back to ensure all the cables are set back far enough

 

[pjmale45]

I have a friend who does domestic wiring unfortunately he's not local to me, I've taken his advise as well and hes gobsmacked by the workmanship and hes never seen such poor finishing. I was just surprised by it tbh. Any way it is what it is by looks of it, a rip off.

 

[Midwest]

The plaster would cover just the cable but with the clips or the capping which is used in some areas for some reason it makes them flush with the surface of the plaster. As I say its more around the cost and what was expected for that cost. The customer has now got to get either major plaster works done and coving work or get cables channeled in further. Ive got the safe zones in the building regs and on site guide I hadnt even considered that and didnt get that far. Once I saw the install I was in complete shock if Im honest.

I quite agree with your comments, it is a poor install. The only reason to use cable clips and not capping or channelling, is the later is more time consuming to install. Which suggests other areas of the work, may have been conducted in the same manner.

What did the quotation say about chasing and making good afterwards? What's in the terms and conditions of the quotation? Has the invoice been paid and an EIC & Compliance Certificate been received?

 

[buzzlightyear]

. 1 person says one thing but others aren't so sure to agree. I

We are the borg the collective so any thing we say goes not always togeather. Lol

 

[HappyHippyDad]

@pjmale45
It sounds like you had already made up your mind that the install was 'terrible' and you just wanted evevryone to say that so you had a bit of ammunition rather than advise.

I agree with the majority of the comments, it does look rough. In parts it looks very rough and I would be completely embarrassed to put my name to it. However, just because it looks rough does not make it non-compliant with the regulations. The cables entering the top of the consumer unit are non compliant and should have not been done like that.

The electrician and owner should have had a discussion before hand about whether cables were going to be surface mounted or plastered into the wall. From your pictures it looks like a mixture of both so I'm guessing this was discussed before hand or written in the quote. If not, then your friend was a bit silly for not getting it all in writing and the electrician was unprofessional for not discussing it or writing it in their quote.

If the cables are protruding from the wall and cannot be plastered in without making a lump then this needs to be changed (unless agreed upon prior) as you would expect a chase to be made deep enough to hide the cables.

It would be best to have an adult discussion with the electrician and come to an agreement. If you cannot then you ask the electrician for their complaints procedure which all registered electricians have.

 

[pjmale45]

@pjmale45
It sounds like you had already made up your mind that the install was 'terrible' and you just wanted evevryone to say that so you had a bit of ammunition rather than advise.

I had made my mind up yes that it was 'terrible' because it is. I will be honest and say that I had 'expected' most people to say it was because 'it is' lol. Its just not standards Ive ever come across in my history but admitidly I rarely see house re-wires any more. The advise is of course ammunition because Im not happy with the level of workmanship in retrospect to the cost involved. I wasnt sure on regs and this is where I required most advise tbh. I 'presumed' capping was a reg as Ive never ever seen cables not capped but as I say my experience in that is limited. I was also unsure on new regs on DB's. I thought cables had to be sealed into them as part of the fire side of things, never even knew about IP ratings.
Im very grateful for advise of course I was just surprised at the level of difference in peoples opinions on it. I do really think its a shame that this kind of workmanship is almost considered as 'standard'.
Im mostly industrial wiring as I install capital machinery into Blue Chip companies and I could never get away with anything near these standards but yes thats a very different field.

 

[Midwest]

What did the quotation say about chasing and making good afterwards? What's in the terms and conditions of the quotation? Has the invoice been paid and an EIC & Compliance Certificate been received?

Im very grateful for advise of course I was just surprised at the level of difference in peoples opinions on it. I do really think its a shame that this kind of workmanship is almost considered as 'standard'.
Im mostly industrial wiring as I install capital machinery into Blue Chip companies and I could never get away with anything near these standards but yes thats a very different field.

Have you any answers to my questions?

 

[pjmale45]

Im still waiting to see the documents with my own eyes, they certificated the install on completion bit Ive not read it yet. The home owner would not have known anything about the requirements other than she said she was just getting it re plastered. The home owner was unaware of any issues until I saw the install. Im going to photograph all documents and you can all make your comments further from there. I will also get further install pictures including inside DB.

 

[radiohead]

I had made my mind up yes that it was 'terrible' because it is. I will be honest and say that I had 'expected' most people to say it was because 'it is' lol. Its just not standards Ive ever come across in my history but admitidly I rarely see house re-wires any more. The advise is of course ammunition because Im not happy with the level of workmanship in retrospect to the cost involved. I wasnt sure on regs and this is where I required most advise tbh. I 'presumed' capping was a reg as Ive never ever seen cables not capped but as I say my experience in that is limited. I was also unsure on new regs on DB's. I thought cables had to be sealed into them as part of the fire side of things, never even knew about IP ratings.
Im very grateful for advise of course I was just surprised at the level of difference in peoples opinions on it. I do really think its a shame that this kind of workmanship is almost considered as 'standard'.
Im mostly industrial wiring as I install capital machinery into Blue Chip companies and I could never get away with anything near these standards but yes thats a very different field.

It is unfortunate that you are not entirely hearing what you expected to hear. Nobody has suggested this is anything other than poorly finished. When I carry out rewires I use a chasing machine with dust extraction, and all buried cables are installed in 20mm plastic conduit finished below plaster level, I also carry out plastering myself to at least as high a standard as a professional plasterer, all you'd need to do is decorate. I would agree that leaving supposedly buried cables proud of the surface finish is unacceptable. However I am certain you'd be paying more than 4.5K for my rewiring services. The points that are being made are that you have queried whether you have grounds for complaint with breaches of regulations, whilst you may, IMO those breaches are minor and not likely to result in the NICEIC asking for anything more than remedials to the possible IP issue on the top of the DB. You still have not answered my question on the vertical drops which has the potential to be a more serious breach of regulations. As far as finish goes you will need to review exactly what was quoted for before complaining.

 

[telectrix]

re- cable capping..... on a wall that is to be completely plastered ( not a chase), then capping is required to protect the cables frm the plastere's trowel. years ago it was also required where the would be an interaction between the plaster (could have been lime) and the cables' insulation ( VIR?). these days, cable in chases does not need capping.

 

[Pete999]

It is unfortunate that you are not entirely hearing what you expected to hear. Nobody has suggested this is anything other than poorly finished. When I carry out rewires I use a chasing machine with dust extraction, and all buried cables are installed in 20mm plastic conduit finished below plaster level, I also carry out plastering myself to at least as high a standard as a professional plasterer, all you'd need to do is decorate. I would agree that leaving supposedly buried cables proud of the surface finish is unacceptable. However I am certain you'd be paying more than 4.5K for my rewiring services. The points that are being made are that you have queried whether you have grounds for complaint with breaches of regulations, whilst you may, IMO those breaches are minor and not likely to result in the NICEIC asking for anything more than remedials to the possible IP issue on the top of the DB. You still have not answered my question on the vertical drops which has the potential to be a more serious breach of regulations. As far as finish goes you will need to review exactly what was quoted for before complaining.

Can I ask why you mention the NICEIC mate was the sparky a NICEIC paid up member?