Customer wants round back boxes and round sockets, round everything!

[littlespark]

Thanks for taking the time to take pictures, that's kind of you.

i should have binned it.... but hey, it came in handy.

 

[Markyd]

How thick are the walls...may need fixing with adhesive anyway

 

[123]

My customer wants to fit round sockets and switches. He has sent me a link to the back boxes that are required.

A few questions..

1. Has anyone fitted these before (see links below)? if so, did the backboxes take much longer than normal 25mm boxes? I believe they are 46mm deep or even 66mm??!! Do they need cementing in as I don't think they have screw holes? They look like a pain! No variable lug on one side, so has to be fitted perfectly level!!

2. The sockets will be unswitched. I can't see a problem with this as Table J1 in OSG shows a plug and socket as acceptable for isolation (and even functional switching) but thought I'd check?

3. Any other unforeseen problems using this style of socket/switch and backbox?

Backbox Kaiser back box for solid walls - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/kaiser-backbox-solid-wall/
Dimmer Duroplast Dimmer Round - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/duroplast-led-dimmer-round-switch/#what-you-need-to-know
Socket Roo Nigra Socket - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/katypaty-roo-nigra-socket/?attribute_pa_finish=black-matt&attribute_pa_function=single-unswitched
Switch

Bakelite Rotary Round - Swtch

A faithful re-invention of the rotary switch common in Europe in the 1910s and 20s, made from that much-loved, classic material of the era: Bakelite. This

www.swtch.co.uk

What a PITA . Still, you charge accordingly

Rewire I am doing at the moment has a variety of these switches going in (no sockets, though, they will be mostly out of sight and something we are more used to).

1. Chopping out a wall doesn't take very long really. But the entry points to these boxes is quite far back. Slight quirk on rewire I am on is due to way doors are hinged that light switches are back to back quite often. Nice hole in the wall in a few rooms.

2. No issue

3. Yes, the switches are very deep. Not much room behind them. Go with the deep boxes if you can.
Get customer to order everything they need & want, and set it all out beforehand. Some of the multi gang light switch stuff may end up going on metal flush boxes depending on setup, but any of the round stuff won't. The figure of 8 stuff is an absolute PITA to set the boxes for spacing.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

No variable lug on one side, so has to be fitted perfectly level

As Wolf points out, with European fittings the mounting screws go through slots that form arcs of a circle, so that the fitting can rotate exactly about its centre before tightening. UK fittings can't have slots because the screws have traditionally been exposed. European fittings normally have the screws and flange concealed behind a snap-on bezel or full-width switch rocker. Like many aspects of electrical materials, different conventions have evolved in different locations to achieve the same general result.

Switches have always been optional on BS1363 sockets but in the UK we're quite attached to them, unlike much of the rest of the world. FWIW Denmark also quite likes switched sockets.

 

[wolfatswtch]

As Wolf points out, with European fittings the mounting screws go through slots that form arcs of a circle, so that the fitting can rotate exactly about its centre before tightening. UK fittings can't have slots because the screws have traditionally been exposed. European fittings normally have the screws and flange concealed behind a snap-on bezel or full-width switch rocker. Like many aspects of electrical materials, different conventions have evolved in different locations to achieve the same general result.

Switches have always been optional on BS1363 sockets but in the UK we're quite attached to them, unlike much of the rest of the world. FWIW Denmark also quite likes switched sockets.

So (asking as a layperson) what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

Denmark are pretty quirky all round in terms of sockets. They officially allow installation of Type E and K but also C and F! They have the friendliest looking sockets though:

 

[wolfatswtch]

Rewire I am doing at the moment has a variety of these switches going in (no sockets, though, they will be mostly out of sight and something we are more used to).

Good to hear!

3. Yes, the switches are very deep. Not much room behind them. Go with the deep boxes if you can.
Get customer to order everything they need & want, and set it all out beforehand. Some of the multi gang light switch stuff may end up going on metal flush boxes depending on setup, but any of the round stuff won't. The figure of 8 stuff is an absolute PITA to set the boxes for spacing.

Yes, in solid walls the "joining" plates are a bit fiddly to get right, but you can push the boxes together to create multiples:

For plasterboard there are moulded double back boxes available, which make the process much easier:

 

[DPG]

So (asking as a layperson) what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

Denmark are pretty quirky all round in terms of sockets. They officially allow installation of Type E and K but also C and F! They have the friendliest looking sockets though:

View attachment 98935

I personally do not like unswitched sockets. Why would you risk the arcing when someone plugs a high current appliance in, especially if they are a bit sluggish when inserting the plug.

 

[wolfatswtch]

I personally do not like unswitched sockets. Why would you risk the arcing when someone plugs a high current appliance in, especially if they are a bit sluggish when inserting the plug.

So you would be happy to install them where it will be mostly low current appliances (lamps etc) but not above a kitchen worktop for example (kettle etc)?

Also, AFAIK the appliance has to be switched on for arcing to occur. So someone would have to hold down the switch of a kettle while slowly plugging it in or unplugging it. Is that correct?

 

[DPG]

So you would be happy to install them where it will be mostly low current appliances (lamps etc) but not above a kitchen worktop for example (kettle etc)?

Also, AFAIK the appliance has to be switched on for arcing to occur. So someone would have to hold down the switch of a kettle while slowly plugging it in or unplugging it. Is that correct?

I wouldn't install non-switched sockets generally, unless there is a good reason (fridge freezer etc.). You can't predict what someone is going to plug in, especially if extension cords are involved.

Yes a kettle would need to be switched on but, as an example, I've got a wallpaper steamer which doesn't have an on/off switch and is on full load when plugged in.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I feel a bit guilty now You've all written so much and we even have a supplier helping out!! However, the customer is having a rethink, erring towards a more British rectangle...

Quickly runs away......

 

[Lucien Nunes]

what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

At 13A, the switch is a nicety; it gets more important when you move up to 63 and 12A etc. but these are not relevant here. When you are used to switched sockets, relying on the socket contacts to break the load seems crude, but it works fine and most of the world does it. Even locales with highly evolved electrical regs that have historically used unswitched sockets have not found it worthwhile to introduce a requirement for a switch.

The arc is not serious on AC and a deliberate attempt to withdraw a plug usually makes for a reasonably controlled rate of contact separation. Arcing is much more serious if a plug is left just barely engaged into contact and can fizzle and burn for an extended period, which of course is just as likely with a switched socket as an unswitched one. I would not differentiate between kinds of load or application when fitting an unswitched socket. A laptop charger is as likely to make splash on inrush, as a heater on disconnection, neither is dangerous. But I would say installing unswitched sockets for general use is inconvenient when switched ones are so widely available and standard.

Historically some manufacturers made various attempts to address arcing when disengaging a plug, especially in the pre-war days of DC supplies, as the arc is not self-quenching on DC as it is on AC. Wylex used spring-loaded ball bearings to create a snap action that made sure the plug was either fully in or out. At least one manufacturer introduced shutters with the claim that these 'cut off' the arc as they closed (in addition to preventing insertion of foreign objects). Walsall actually incorporated an interlocked switch that operated automatically as you inserted the plug - you couldn't see or operate the switch yourself. But whether these were of any real value on AC, and not just sales features, is moot.

 

[wolfatswtch]

At 13A, the switch is a nicety; it gets more important when you move up to 63 and 12A etc. but these are not relevant here. When you are used to switched sockets, relying on the socket contacts to break the load seems crude, but it works fine and most of the world does it. Even locales with highly evolved electrical regs that have historically used unswitched sockets have not found it worthwhile to introduce a requirement for a switch.

Thank you for the really comprehensive and informative comment. I will save this and send it to any installer who says "unswitched sockets are not safe and/or illegal in the UK" - we've had a few of those over the years...

A laptop charger is as likely to make splash on inrush, as a heater on disconnection, neither is dangerous.

My laptop power supply always causes arcing when I plug it in anywhere.

But I would say installing unswitched sockets for general use is inconvenient when switched ones are so widely available and standard.

True, but there is also the aesthetic element to consider. Some of the designs we supply look much better with an unswitched socket (and in fact a couple of them are only available unswitched). For example the porcelain range the OP mentioned doesn't come as switched. I've been told by manufacturers that it's difficult enough to make a 13A BS1363 outlet cover in ceramic, let alone adding a switch!

 

[DPG]

Thank you for the really comprehensive and informative comment. I will save this and send it to any installer who says "unswitched sockets are not safe and/or illegal in the UK" - we've had a few of those over the years...


My laptop power supply always causes arcing when I plug it in anywhere.


True, but there is also the aesthetic element to consider. Some of the designs we supply look much better with an unswitched socket (and in fact a couple of them are only available unswitched). For example the porcelain range the OP mentioned doesn't come as switched. I've been told by manufacturers that it's difficult enough to make a 13A BS1363 outlet cover in ceramic, let alone adding a switch!

Aesthetic requirements should come definite second after actual requirements. Unfortunately form over function seems to be the way things are going with electrical accessories.